[Dixielandjazz] Roy Eldridge followed Louis Armstrong?
Steve Voce
stevevoce at virginmedia.com
Tue Apr 11 18:03:19 EDT 2017
Could you just amplify a bit more, Maryk, your suggestion that Miles
Davis 'mars many Bird records'? I'm genuinely interested to know the
reason. I'm sure you wouldn't make such a sweeping statement without
having paid good attention to what Miles was doing on the recordings,
generally regarded as classics of the genre. Or did you read it in a
book? Could you tell us more too about the 'quite a lot of bebop'? You
don't say whether you like it or hate it, and again I'd be interested to
know more detail of what you listened to.
Steve Voce
On 11/04/2017 21:25, Marek Boym wrote:
> Definitely a trad lover, but, first and foremost, a loyal subject of
> His (late) Majesty, the King of Swing.
> Also (don't tell anybody - I'll flatly deny it!) quite a lot of
> bebop. And despite all the enthusiastic words about Miles, to me he
> still mars many Bird records (that's where I discovered - in the late
> fifties, when I used to borrow records from the USIS library - that
> his playing was boring).
> Sonny Stitt and Von Freeman are still among my favourite saxophonists.
> Cheers
>
> On 11 April 2017 at 21:06, Charles Suhor <csuhor at zebra.net
> <mailto:csuhor at zebra.net>> wrote:
>
> Great anecdotes and personal stories coming from this strand on
> Miles, posted by perceptive fans and deeply involved writers and
> players. More broadly, I’m encouraged to find that fellow jazz
> “omnivores,” as one of you put it, are on the list. It has
> sometimes seemed like a club for trad lovers. Worthies all, for
> sure, but it’s refreshing to see the expanded conversation.
>
> Charlie
>
>
>> On Apr 11, 2017, at 10:25 AM, Steve Voce
>> <stevevoce at virginmedia.com <mailto:stevevoce at virginmedia.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Much of what Charlie Suhor and Jack Wiard wrote resonates with me.
>>
>> I continue to enjoy almost everything that Miles played up until
>> the '60s. (I'm in the middle of writing a 2,000 word piece about
>> his wonderful 1961 Carnegie Hall concert) up until and including
>> 'In A Silent Way' and 'Bitches' Brew). He created gigantic
>> classics with the Gil Evans collaborations 'Miles Ahead' and
>> 'Sketches Of Spain'. 'Kind Of Blue', a masterpiece, remains the
>> best selling jazz album of all time, and deservedly so. At least
>> two excellent books have been written devoted to that one album,
>> and I have another very good book on 'Bitches' Brew'.
>> So, up to that point, 'Bitches' Brew', the man was one of the all
>> time greats, with various elements of his work (improvisation,
>> composition, forward-looking awareness, imagination, bandleading)
>> ranking him with earlier giants like Armstrong and Ellington.
>> Charles Suhor spots the switch into rock, where Miles would stick
>> a few phrases into ten minute pieces. Quite so. Miles listened
>> carefully to the bands who were playing the most successful rock
>> and drew elements from them in what seems to me an unfortunately
>> cynical way in order to make a great deal of money. Only last
>> week I bought a much acclaimed (by rock people) CD of his famous
>> Isle Of White performance and some stuff from the 1969 Newport
>> Jazz Festival. There is virtually nothing, amid the overpowering
>> and unsubtle rock music, to please Miles's admirers. (Duke
>> suffered an almost comparable descent with his latter-day
>> 'Sacred' music.
>> I was fortunate enough to meet both Miles and Duke. I live in
>> Liverpool, a couple of hundred miles from London. When Miles
>> first came over the editor of the Melody Maker, for which I then
>> wrote, 'phoned and asked me if I'd interview Miles when he came
>> to Liverpool. I agreed to.
>> It was only after the call that I remembered that the warning had
>> gone round that Miles was travelling with two body guards and
>> neither he nor they had any compunction about thumping people.
>> None of the Melody Maker's other writers had wanted the job.
>> Miles was to play at Liverpool's Philharmonic Hall - with a good
>> band including Wynton Kelly and Sonny Stitt).
>> I arrived 90 minutes early and went to the Philharmonic pub over
>> the road where, nervous, I drank three pints of bitter to bolster
>> my courage.
>> Then into the hall and round to the Green Room, where I knocked
>> on the door, ready to flinch if a bodyguard opened it.
>> But it was opened by Miles himself, who had one hand behind his
>> back.
>> 'Oh God,' I thought. 'He's going to knife me'.
>> I handed him my card and asked if we could have a few words. He
>> read the card and brought his hand from behind his back. It held
>> a bottle of Scotch.
>> 'Come in, Steve, and have a drink,' he said, handing me the bottle.
>> I did, and as I drank, I must have leaned back too much, for I
>> felt myself tread on someone's foot. There followed a string of
>> invective which to this day holds me in awe. The only repeatable
>> bit was that I was a white mother-...... I had stood on the foot
>> of a strung-out Sonny Stitt.
>> And Duke? He gave me a drink from Billy Strayhorn's bottle of
>> gin. But that's another even longer story.
>> Steve Voce
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 10, 2017, at 10:07 PM, jack wiard <jack_wiard at hotmail.com
>> <mailto:jack_wiard at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> Hi Charles,
>>>> My first hearing of Miles Davis was at the Jazz Workshop in San
>>>> Francisco in the 1960s. Not liking the music at all but
>>>> believing one should hear someone at least three times before
>>>> forming an opinion, I heard M . Davis again a few years later
>>>> at the BOTH/AND CLUB in San Francisco. I had a front row seat.
>>>> Miles was introduced to huge applause. The rhythm section set
>>>> up an up tempo c minor chord [nothing else, just c minor].
>>>> Miles did a long solo, then the rhythm [bass and [too loud]
>>>> drums only, then Miles again. Tonally, one chord for the 25
>>>> minute length of the song was very ,very boring. I might add
>>>> that during much of his solo, Davis faced the wall, so he could
>>>> hear himself better. That meant the audience got to look at his
>>>> backside for 25 minutes. Of course, I liked the tone and
>>>> flawless execution but for me, on this number, the music
>>>> element was not evident. At the end of the performance, the
>>>> name of the 'song' was not announced, so even if one liked the
>>>> 'song', you would not know what to ask for in the music store
>>>> to buy it. The applause was huge and there was not the
>>>> slightest hint of a smile. He then walked off for a 30 minute
>>>> break.
>>>> But wait,theres' more. In the early 1970s, Davis appeared at
>>>> the Sydney [Australia] Entertainment Centre [sold out
>>>> 12,000people] with a rock band. Davis would just blurt out a
>>>> few notes to establish a rhythm pattern for the guitars/drums
>>>> to play and then he would play for 1-2 minutes in a 10-12
>>>> minute song. He played 2 x 46 minute sets. Being a
>>>> masochist, I stayed for all of it but by the end of the 1st
>>>> set, about one third of the audience had left to go home.
>>>> Someone at the concert actually yelled out 'PLAY SOME JAZZ'.
>>>> Davis approached a microphone and said 'I DON'T PLAY TO
>>>> ORDERS'. That was the only announcement he made all night.
>>>> Wow, such stage pressence [NOT].. And that[hand on heart]is a
>>>> true account of my three encounters with Miles Davis.
>>>> Cheers JACK WIARD
>>>> From: Charles Suhor <csuhor at zebra.net <mailto:csuhor at zebra.net>>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, 11 April 2017 10:22 AM
>>>> To: jack_wiard at hotmail.com <mailto:jack_wiard at hotmail.com>
>>>> Cc: Dixieland Jazz Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Roy Eldridge followed Louis Armstrong?
>>>> Apology accepted, with respect. Re Miles, I lost interest in
>>>> his playing with the famed “Bitches’ Brew” rock/jazz synthesis,
>>>> though I believe his playing until then was often brilliant,
>>>> sometimes transporting. I don’t relate at all to the
>>>> post-Coltrane improvisers for whom formlessness is a stimulus.
>>>> Random invention is sometimes fun to watch on site—they’re
>>>> trying their luck in real time. But without physical presence,
>>>> there’s not even the wonderment of unfolding-in-the-moment.
>>>> Why listen to something that has become a non-event? That’s my
>>>> hobby horse, time to dismount.
>>>>
>>>> Charlie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 10, 2017, at 6:31 PM, Marek Boym <marekboym at gmail.com
>>>>> <mailto:marekboym at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry. I didn't mean to be offensive.
>>>>> I made the journey the other way round: I started listening to
>>>>> everything when in my teens. including rock and roll, which in
>>>>> my native Poland (and later here in Israel) was considered
>>>>> jazz, and became greatly disappointed by modernists, in
>>>>> particular by the then greatest hero, Miles Davis, before I
>>>>> ever heard Wild Bill Davison. I had known the Brubecks ("Blue
>>>>> Rondo a la Turk," for example) and the MJQ records by heart
>>>>> before I ever heard ABOUT Wild Bill. Gradually I lost all
>>>>> interest in their cool, to my ear - lifeless - music. By the
>>>>> mid 1960's I dropped most "modern" jazz and concentrated on
>>>>> jazz and swing. I cannot see the connection between Miles
>>>>> Davis and jazz. nothing wrong in liking Miles Davis - it just
>>>>> does not sound like jazz. Eddie Condon had something to say
>>>>> on the subject: "A terrible thing has happened to jazz: it
>>>>> became respectable." That must be the reason while so many
>>>>> musicians want their music classified as jazz. I wish I could
>>>>> claim this is an original idea, but the explanation comes from
>>>>> Hughes Panassie's "The Unreal Jazz."
>>>>> I apologize again,
>>>>> Marek
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11 April 2017 at 00:42, Charles Suhor <csuhor at zebra.net
>>>>> <mailto:csuhor at zebra.net>> wrote:
>>>>> Marek, I came by my fandom honestly. Born and raised in New
>>>>> Orleans; before my teens, enchanted (still am) by Bunk, Louis,
>>>>> Bechet, and others. Moved along, without burning the bridges
>>>>> of my love for early jazz, to enjoying and playing drums in
>>>>> many styles. Gigged with big band and modern jazz groups on
>>>>> some weekends, on others with Armand Hug, Chink Martin, Paul
>>>>> Crawford, etc. But from inside your bubble, I’m not a jazz
>>>>> fan. You’re entitled to your opinion, man, but that’s an insult.
>>>>>
>>>>> Charlie
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 10, 2017, at 3:20 PM, Marek Boym <marekboym at gmail.com
>>>>>> <mailto:marekboym at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> some of us do not consider Miles Davis followers jazz fans,
>>>>>> which makes the preceding part of this post irrelevant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
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