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<p>Could you just amplify a bit more, Maryk, your suggestion that
Miles Davis 'mars many Bird records'? I'm genuinely interested to
know the reason. I'm sure you wouldn't make such a sweeping
statement without having paid good attention to what Miles was
doing on the recordings, generally regarded as classics of the
genre. Or did you read it in a book? Could you tell us more too
about the 'quite a lot of bebop'? You don't say whether you like
it or hate it, and again I'd be interested to know more detail of
what you listened to.<br>
</p>
<p>Steve Voce<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/04/2017 21:25, Marek Boym wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABGvO8ACYxe2h6t+Dn2n7VKi=gQFzP3ErX_+LAMytnY_SPX7Cg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>Definitely a trad lover, but, first and foremost, a
loyal subject of His (late) Majesty, the King of Swing.<br>
</div>
Also (don't tell anybody - I'll flatly deny it!) quite a lot
of bebop. And despite all the enthusiastic words about
Miles, to me he still mars many Bird records (that's where I
discovered - in the late fifties, when I used to borrow
records from the USIS library - that his playing was
boring). <br>
</div>
Sonny Stitt and Von Freeman are still among my favourite
saxophonists.<br>
</div>
Cheers<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 11 April 2017 at 21:06, Charles
Suhor <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:csuhor@zebra.net" target="_blank">csuhor@zebra.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Great anecdotes and
personal stories coming from this strand on Miles, posted
by perceptive fans and deeply involved writers and
players. More broadly, I’m encouraged to find that fellow
jazz “omnivores,” as one of you put it, are on the list.
It has sometimes seemed like a club for trad lovers.
Worthies all, for sure, but it’s refreshing to see the
expanded conversation.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Charlie<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Apr 11, 2017, at 10:25 AM, Steve Voce <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stevevoce@virginmedia.com"
target="_blank">stevevoce@virginmedia.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="m_-7976373820494142715Apple-interchange-newline">
<div><span
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Much
of what Charlie Suhor and Jack Wiard wrote
resonates with me.</span><br
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">I
continue to enjoy almost everything that Miles
played up until the '60s. (I'm in the middle
of writing a 2,000 word piece about his
wonderful 1961 Carnegie Hall concert) up until
and including 'In A Silent Way' and 'Bitches'
Brew). He created gigantic classics with the
Gil Evans collaborations 'Miles Ahead' and
'Sketches Of Spain'. 'Kind Of Blue', a
masterpiece, remains the best selling jazz
album of all time, and deservedly so. At least
two excellent books have been written devoted
to that one album, and I have another very
good book on 'Bitches' Brew'.</span><br
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">So,
up to that point, 'Bitches' Brew', the man was
one of the all time greats, with various
elements of his work (improvisation,
composition, forward-looking awareness,
imagination, bandleading) ranking him with
earlier giants like Armstrong and Ellington.</span><br
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Charles
Suhor spots the switch into rock, where Miles
would stick a few phrases into ten minute
pieces. Quite so. Miles listened carefully to
the bands who were playing the most successful
rock and drew elements from them in what seems
to me an unfortunately cynical way in order to
make a great deal of money. Only last week I
bought a much acclaimed (by rock people) CD of
his famous Isle Of White performance and some
stuff from the 1969 Newport Jazz Festival.
There is virtually nothing, amid the
overpowering and unsubtle rock music, to
please Miles's admirers. (Duke suffered an
almost comparable descent with his latter-day
'Sacred' music.</span><br
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">I
was fortunate enough to meet both Miles and
Duke. I live in Liverpool, a couple of hundred
miles from London. When Miles first came over
the editor of the Melody Maker, for which I
then wrote, 'phoned and asked me if I'd
interview Miles when he came to Liverpool. I
agreed to.</span><br
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">It
was only after the call that I remembered that
the warning had gone round that Miles was
travelling with two body guards and neither he
nor they had any compunction about thumping
people. None of the Melody Maker's other
writers had wanted the job.</span><br
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important"> Miles
was to play at Liverpool's Philharmonic Hall -
with a good band including Wynton Kelly and
Sonny Stitt).</span><br
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important"> I
arrived 90 minutes early and went to the
Philharmonic pub over the road where, nervous,
I drank three pints of bitter to bolster my
courage.</span><br
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important"> Then
into the hall and round to the Green Room,
where I knocked on the door, ready to flinch
if a bodyguard opened it.</span><br
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important"> But
it was opened by Miles himself, who had one
hand behind his back.</span><br
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important"> 'Oh
God,' I thought. 'He's going to knife me'.</span><br
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important"> I
handed him my card and asked if we could have
a few words. He read the card and brought his
hand from behind his back. It held a bottle of
Scotch.</span><br
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important"> 'Come
in, Steve, and have a drink,' he said, handing
me the bottle.</span><br
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important"> I
did, and as I drank, I must have leaned back
too much, for I felt myself tread on someone's
foot. There followed a string of invective
which to this day holds me in awe. The only
repeatable bit was that I was a white
mother-...... I had stood on the foot of a
strung-out Sonny Stitt.</span><br
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">And
Duke? He gave me a drink from Billy
Strayhorn's bottle of gin. But that's another
even longer story.</span><br
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Steve
Voce</span><br
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<br
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">On
Apr 10, 2017, at 10:07 PM, jack wiard <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jack_wiard@hotmail.com"
target="_blank">jack_wiard@hotmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span><br
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<blockquote type="cite"
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<blockquote type="cite">Hi Charles,<br>
My first hearing of Miles Davis was at the
Jazz Workshop in San Francisco in the 1960s.
Not liking the music at all but believing
one should hear someone at least three times
before forming an opinion, I heard M . Davis
again a few years later at the BOTH/AND CLUB
in San Francisco. I had a front row seat.
Miles was introduced to huge applause. The
rhythm section set up an up tempo c minor
chord [nothing else, just c minor]. Miles
did a long solo, then the rhythm [bass and
[too loud] drums only, then Miles again.
Tonally, one chord for the 25 minute
length of the song was very ,very boring. I
might add that during much of his solo,
Davis faced the wall, so he could hear
himself better. That meant the audience got
to look at his backside for 25 minutes. Of
course, I liked the tone and flawless
execution but for me, on this number, the
music element was not evident. At the end
of the performance, the name of the 'song'
was not announced, so even if one liked the
'song', you would not know what to ask for
in the music store to buy it. The applause
was huge and there was not the slightest
hint of a smile. He then walked off for a 30
minute break.<br>
But wait,theres' more. In the early 1970s,
Davis appeared at the Sydney [Australia]
Entertainment Centre [sold out 12,000people]
with a rock band. Davis would just blurt
out a few notes to establish a rhythm
pattern for the guitars/drums to play and
then he would play for 1-2 minutes in a
10-12 minute song. He played 2 x 46
minute sets. Being a masochist, I stayed for
all of it but by the end of the 1st set,
about one third of the audience had left
to go home. Someone at the concert
actually yelled out 'PLAY SOME JAZZ'.<br>
Davis approached a microphone and said 'I
DON'T PLAY TO ORDERS'. That was the only
announcement he made all night. Wow, such
stage pressence [NOT].. And that[hand on
heart]is a true account of my three
encounters with Miles Davis.<br>
Cheers JACK WIARD<br>
From: Charles Suhor <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:csuhor@zebra.net"
target="_blank">csuhor@zebra.net</a>><br>
Sent: Tuesday, 11 April 2017 10:22 AM<br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jack_wiard@hotmail.com"
target="_blank">jack_wiard@hotmail.com</a><br>
Cc: Dixieland Jazz Mailing List<br>
Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Roy Eldridge
followed Louis Armstrong?<br>
Apology accepted, with respect. Re Miles, I
lost interest in his playing with the famed
“Bitches’ Brew” rock/jazz synthesis, though
I believe his playing until then was often
brilliant, sometimes transporting. I don’t
relate at all to the post-Coltrane
improvisers for whom formlessness is a
stimulus. Random invention is sometimes fun
to watch on site—they’re trying their luck
in real time. But without physical presence,
there’s not even the wonderment of
unfolding-in-the-moment. Why listen to
something that has become a non-event?
That’s my hobby horse, time to dismount.<br>
<br>
Charlie<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Apr 10, 2017, at
6:31 PM, Marek Boym <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:marekboym@gmail.com"
target="_blank">marekboym@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
Sorry. I didn't mean to be offensive.<br>
I made the journey the other way round: I
started listening to everything when in my
teens. including rock and roll, which in
my native Poland (and later here in
Israel) was considered jazz, and became
greatly disappointed by modernists, in
particular by the then greatest hero,
Miles Davis, before I ever heard Wild Bill
Davison. I had known the Brubecks ("Blue
Rondo a la Turk," for example) and the MJQ
records by heart before I ever heard ABOUT
Wild Bill. Gradually I lost all interest
in their cool, to my ear - lifeless -
music. By the mid 1960's I dropped most
"modern" jazz and concentrated on jazz and
swing. I cannot see the connection
between Miles Davis and jazz. nothing
wrong in liking Miles Davis - it just does
not sound like jazz. Eddie Condon had
something to say on the subject: "A
terrible thing has happened to jazz: it
became respectable." That must be the
reason while so many musicians want their
music classified as jazz. I wish I could
claim this is an original idea, but the
explanation comes from Hughes Panassie's
"The Unreal Jazz."<br>
I apologize again,<br>
Marek<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 11 April 2017 at 00:42, Charles Suhor
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:csuhor@zebra.net"
target="_blank">csuhor@zebra.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
Marek, I came by my fandom honestly. Born
and raised in New Orleans; before my
teens, enchanted (still am) by Bunk,
Louis, Bechet, and others. Moved along,
without burning the bridges of my love for
early jazz, to enjoying and playing drums
in many styles. Gigged with big band and
modern jazz groups on some weekends, on
others with Armand Hug, Chink Martin, Paul
Crawford, etc. But from inside your
bubble, I’m not a jazz fan. You’re
entitled to your opinion, man, but that’s
an insult.<br>
<br>
Charlie<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Apr 10, 2017,
at 3:20 PM, Marek Boym <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:marekboym@gmail.com"
target="_blank">marekboym@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
some of us do not consider Miles Davis
followers jazz fans, which makes the
preceding part of this post irrelevant.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote>
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<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.avast.com/antivirus"
style="font-family:TimesNewRomanPSMT;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"
target="_blank">https://www.avast.com/<wbr>antivirus</a><br
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target="_blank">http://ml.islandnet.com/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz</a><br
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<span
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mailing list</span><br
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<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Dixielandjazz@ml.islandnet.com"
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target="_blank">Dixielandjazz@ml.islandnet.com</a></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
To unsubscribe or change your e-mail preferences for the
Dixieland Jazz Mailing list, or to find the online archives,
please visit:<br>
<br>
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rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://ml.islandnet.com/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dixielandjazz mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Dixielandjazz@ml.islandnet.com">Dixielandjazz@ml.islandnet.com</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
To unsubscribe or change your e-mail preferences for the Dixieland Jazz Mailing list, or to find the online archives, please visit:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz">http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz</a>
Dixielandjazz mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Dixielandjazz@ml.islandnet.com">Dixielandjazz@ml.islandnet.com</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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<div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br />
<table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
<tr>
<td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 13px;"><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank"><img src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;" /></a></td>
<td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color: #41424e; font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; line-height: 18px;">Virus-free. <a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avast.com</a>
</td>
</tr>
</table><a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1"> </a></div></body>
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