[Dixielandjazz] Fwd: where does Dixieland end?

[Marek Boym]

Sorry about my previous, folks - no idea how it got sent in mid-sentence!!

Now I  hope to complete it before sending.

Hi Gary,
I very much doubt the "nothing but dixieland ensemble-improv" contention.
Jelly Roll Morton who, even if he did not invent jazz was definitely there
to rock the cradle required his musicians to "play those dots" he put on
paer, and his ensembles, even on the earliest accousic recordings, were
rather tightly arranged.  Actually, the Oliver records sound quite arranged
to me, even if those were "head" arrangements.  After all, that was long
before splicing, and a single mistake would ruin the record and recording
had to start anew.  Therefore, bands had to come to the studios prepared to
make a record in a single take, even if often more were made.  So perhaps
live there was a lot of improvising, but we cannot be sure.  Even the Hot
Fives and Seventh don't really sound like sponaneous improvisation.  I have
the feeling that this, too, was the invention of the critics.  People
couldn't make too many mistakes when they were paid!
Cheers

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Marek Boym <marekboym at gmail.com>
Date: 26 January 2014 21:42
Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] where does Dixieland end?
To: Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym at teledyn.com>
Cc: Dixieland Jazz Mailing List <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>


Hi GAry,
I very much doubt the


On 26 January 2014 20:57, Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym at teledyn.com> wrote:

> Ok, that's maybe a misleading question ;) I don't mean to imply that
> Dixieland jazz is done and finished, just that it had this period of time
> where there was nothing but dixieland ensemble-improv and then, at some
> point, the historians all say "larger ensembles required more arrangment"
> but I'm curious, just everyone knows Livery Stable Blues as the first
> 'Jazz' recording, and certainly it sparks a revolution in ragtime and blues
> bands such that simply *everyone* is playing that jazz music by 1919,is
> there a first new-thing *post* dixieland recording?  Is there a single
> record that turned heads the same way to introduce the more orchestrated
> big-band-jazz sound that still dominates 'jazz' consciousness today?
>
> It's probably not an easy question to answer since there's not a great deal
> of distinction between, say, Jelly Roll Morton ensembles just before and
> just after 1917 although I think there is a certain quality that
> distinguishes the Memphis sound of W.C.Handy from his later, jazz-infused
> NYC sound. Jimmy Durante says he was overwhelmed by this new New Orleans
> sound, and so merged it with his own, but is that all there is to it?
> Looking at Joe Oliver, although it lacks the frenetic pace, 1923 Riverside
> Blues sounds much more raw improvised dixieland to me than 1928's West End
> Blues, which seems at best an 'orderly' dixieland, although dixieland
> nonetheless.
>
> I've been hunting back through my Fletcher Henderson recordings looking for
> a tipping point; as early as 1923 with Coleman Hawkins it doesn't really
> stand up as a 'dixieland jazz' genre, he's got a far more orchestrated,
> structured thing, but perhaps too structured to really be called jazz?
>
> Fletcher Henderson - Shake Your Feet - New York, November 27, 1923 -
> YouTube
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvvbeJCmqZU
>
> So is there any consensus on a definitive post-dixieland recording?
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