[Dixielandjazz] Dogfight!!!

Wed Dec 28 16:33:35 PST 2011

I wasn't really trying to be critical or put anyone down, or for that matter 
be RIGHT. I just thought it was sort of important to note that for most 
working jazz bands that I know of, calling for a dogfight in a tune that 
doesn't have one would be, like I said in my first post, confusing to say 
the least and probably cause an immediate "trainwreck."

Maybe we could discuss "trainwrecks" for awhile???? :) <-that's a "smiley 
face" by the way.

Scott Anthony

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rickz" <rickz at usermail.com>
To: <santh at comcast.net>
Cc: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Dogfight!!!

> Gee,
>
> I didn't realize it was so important for everybody to be RIGHT.  See, 
> we're just talking
> about playing.   We're not playing.
>
> Don't think it hasn't been interesting, because it hasn't.
>
> So, far, I've been wrong, wrong, wrong... and Bob Schultz say's if he said 
> that
> he must have been drunk.
>
> CU,
>
> Rick
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12/28/2011 3:08 PM, Jim O'Briant wrote:
>> John McClernan wrote:
>>
>>> A band that is marching would not have a reason to use the term
>>> "dogfight" in performance. They would use it in rehearsal only. No
>>> drum major ever yelled out "dogfight" while his band was playing and
>>> marching.  Concert band conductors would use it for rehearsal
>>> purposes.  It's like saying, "take it from letter C".
>> And like "Rehearsal letter C," "Dogfight" is a term with a specific 
>> meaning.
>>
>> As Scott Anthony noted in an earlier message today, not every trad tune 
>> has
>> a "dogfight." Not every march has one either. But when they do, it is NOT
>> the final time on the final chorus or strain.
>>
>> The "dogfight" or "break strain" is an separate strain, almost always 
>> played
>> BETWEEN repetitions of the final strain (the TRIO strain of a march). 
>> They
>> are of varying length; examples exist that are 8, 12, 16, 10 or 24 
>> measures
>> in length. Most often they begin in a minor key, usually the relative 
>> minor
>> to the major key of that final strain, and modulate once or twice or more
>> before ending on the V7 (dominant seventh) chord which leads back to the
>> final strain.
>>
>> In another message, John McClernan wrote:
>>
>>> But it's not the Out Chorus... altho it could be.
>> And in another message he wrote:
>>
>>> The dogfight chorus in a trad jazz band comes before the out chorus,
>>> unless it IS the out chorus. If you listen, you can hear it after the
>>> front line takes choruses.
>> Except that the "dogfight" is NOT the out chorus. To call the out chorus 
>> the
>> "dogfight" is to mis-use the term "dogfight."
>>
>> Rick Jolley wrote:
>>
>>> I don't give a damn what they do in Marches.  Trad Jazz is dance
>>> music, don't you know???
>> You're missing the point, Rick. "Dogfight: is not a verb, it's a noun. It
>> refers to a specific kind of strain that is found in some marches and in
>> some trad jazz tunes. It is not an ensemble chorus; it is not the out
>> chorus. It is a separate strain, in a key related to the key of the out
>> chorus (or to the TRIO of a march), which provides contrast between
>> statements of the final chorus (or march TRIO).
>>
>> "Dogfight" is not a way of playing, it's a specific structural part of 
>> some
>> tunes.
>>
>> Here's an example of that structure:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUy9mkOd2Us
>>
>> The march is "Barnum and Bailey's Favorite," played by the Cleveland
>> Symphonic Winds under Frederick Fennell.
>>
>> Time Structural Description
>>
>> 0:00 Introduction
>> 0:10 Vamp (not repeated the way the vamp may be in popular tunes)
>> 0.12 "A" strain
>> 0:25 "A" strain repeated
>> 0:37 "B" strain
>> 0:49 "B" strain repeated
>> 1:03 Transition (also called "interlude," "modulation passage," or
>> "Introduction to the TRIO)
>> 1:06 TRIO strain
>> 1:19 TRIO strain repeated
>> 1:32 Dogfight (also called "break strain;" sometimes called "interlude")
>> 1:45 Reprise of TRIO
>> 1:58 Reprise of Dogfight
>> 2:12 Second reprise of TRIO
>>
>> Again, the above terminology is correct for analysis of the musical
>> structure of this composition. It does not relate in any way to who is
>> playing, how many players are playing, or in what style they are playing.
>>
>> As has been stated earlier in this thread, without the "Dogfight," there
>> would be four consecutive repetitions of the same strain -- the first two
>> scored lightly and played softly, the third&  fourth scored fully& 
>> played
>> loudly. The Dogfight serves to break this up and provide melodic, 
>> harmonic
>> and rhythmic contrast.
>>
>> If one were to do "Barnum and Bailey's Favorite" as a trad tune with a 
>> trad
>> band, the basic structure and terminology would be exactly the same. A 
>> band
>> would probably play down to the Transition (1:03 in the recording) with 
>> the
>> full ensemble. Then, it's likely that the first TRIO strain would be an
>> ensemble chorus, and then where the TRIO is repeated there would be 
>> several
>> repeats, with different players taking solos, trading 4s, and all the 
>> other
>> stuff that trad bands do. But when that's done the Dogfight strain comes
>> next. If we're following the above structure, there would at this point 
>> be:
>>
>> * the Dogfight
>> * an ensemble chorus (analogous to the Reprise of the TRIO)
>>
>> The tune might end here, or might continue with:
>>
>> * the Dogfight again (analogous to the  Reprise of the Dogfight)
>> * final or "out" chorus (analogous to the Second Reprise of the TRIO)
>>
>> Once again, the "dogfight" is a structural device, NOT a way or style of
>> playing an ensemble chorus.
>>
>> Jim O'Briant
>> Gilroy, CA
>> Tuba&  Leader, The Zinfandel Stompers
>>
>>
>>
>>
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