[Dixielandjazz] trombone style change

Sun Jun 1 15:58:09 PDT 2008

If you have visited N'Orleans and listened to the street bands, most of the 
players have a "poor" in the classical sense tone.  Most are out of tune and 
honk a lot.

There are several reasons I think.  First is that many seem to be self 
taught and did not develop correct embouchure early on.  You will see a lot 
of cheek puffing and other poor habits that go along with this.  Other 
reasons are playing for maximum volume.  It takes some very strong chops to 
do that for very long and I just don't think a lot of these guys have them. 
It also takes listening and time to develop correct intonation and again 
this isn't at a premium.  Some of the instruments look like they have seen 
better days too.

I'm not saying all musicians who play in the streets of N'Orleans are this 
way but many are pretty blasty.  I think this extends to all instruments, 
not just the trombone in this setting.  You think that some of these guys 
lips will blow out the ends of their horns.  It's not surprising that they 
got the same sound when they went indoors.

The musicians in the early days of jazz didn't have teachers who would help 
them through these things.  As time went by and more musicians were started 
formally or at least had mentors sound improved but you can still hear this 
sound in the street bands today.  It's the same kind of sound that you will 
hear High School marching bands get in parades.

On the bright side absolutely no one cares what they sound like as they sip 
a beer and watch them go by.
Larry
STL
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steven Holzer" <slholzer at iquest.net>
To: "Larry Walton" <larrys.bands at charter.net>
Cc: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] trombone style change

> eupher dude wrote:
>> When did the trombone go from the raucaus "tailgate" style of Ory et al 
>> (and Murphy later) to the sweet, smooth style of Dorsey etc?  (et al, 
>> etc, I love 'em!)
>>
>> I've never seen a discussion of this.  It's such a huge difference that 
>> happened in a relatively short period of time I'd guess, no more than 5-6 
>> years.
>>
>>
> George Thurmond probably is fairly on target to the extent that if anybody 
> was responsible for a change of trombone styles, it was probably Jack 
> Teagarden and his black opposite number Jimmy Harrison. When somebody 
> sounds that good, it _is_ awfully hard not to follow their lead.
>
> I think it also probable that as trombones came to seek more prominent 
> roles, they found melodic playing more appropriate to their expanded 
> ambitions. Then too, there is the  difference between the predominantly 
> black marketplace that the music increasingly outgrew and the 
> predominantly white marketplaces that the music increasingly entered as it 
> moved north and east. The quotient of raucous versus smooth was bound to 
> change if people like Paul Whiteman had any say in it, and they certainly 
> did.
>
> I think it is fair to ask, however, whether there truly was a change, per 
> se. Players like Tommy Dorsey undoubtedly were playing smooth, sweet 
> trombone before jazz hit the eastern states. It was part of the dance band 
> tradition they grew up in. Players like Ory did not necessarily cease to 
> play the more "raucous" style they brought with them, either. Once the 
> players began to mix, it was more or less inevitable that they would learn 
> from one another and that all musical organizations would adapt more or 
> less of raucousness or more or less of smoothness as their prior 
> orientation left room for or could benefit from. I suppose the leavening 
> effect of smoothness would be more apparent and therefore might be thought 
> of as the "trend", but I suspect that is an oversimplification of what 
> really happened. Did vaunted sweet players like Tommy Dorsey and even Russ 
> Morgan not pick up rowdy elements as well? Would Miff Mole have been what 
> he was if it were not a two-way street? And just how much sweetness did 
> George Brunies ever absorb, anyhow?
>
> Steve Holzer
>
> _______________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or change your e-mail preferences for the Dixieland Jazz 
> Mailing list, or to find the online archives, please visit:
>
> http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz
>
>
>
> Dixielandjazz mailing list
> Dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> 