[Dixielandjazz] Struttin With Some Barbecue

[Stan Brager]

Steve;

I have strong objections to your suggestion that Lil would have been so
dishonest and devious as to put her name on a composition in which she was
merely a copyist. Her relationship with Louis was from all I've read and
those who knew her was that she would never have even thought of fooling
Louis. She was upfront and straightforward with him and others.

Still, I'm interested in why, in the face of all who knew her and the facts
which have been published, would you make your suggestion?

Stan
Stan Brager

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Barbone" <barbonestreet at earthlink.net>
To: "Bill Haesler" <bhaesler at bigpond.net.au>; "DJML"
<dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
Cc: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Struttin With Some Barbecue


> on 5/5/07 9:10 PM, Bill Haesler at bhaesler at bigpond.net.au wrote:
>
> > Dear Steve,
> > Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
> > Well, you know that great 20th century axiom: "It must be true, it was
> > in the newspapers".
> > Yes. I know that account regarding "Struttin' With Some Barbecue"
> > quoted in Thomas Brothers' 'Louis Armstrong. In His Own Words' (Oxford
> > University Press, 1999) but remember, it comes from Louis' 1951
> > interview for 'Esquire' magazine. 24 years after "Struttin'......" was
> > recorded in December 1927 when Okeh (and by extension Louis) was happy
> > to approve the [Hardin] composer credit.
> > When the January 1938 Louis Armstrong Orchestra version of
> > 'Struttin'....." was released, Decca cleverly gave credit on the label
> > to (Armstrong). Lil's lawful name at that time.
> > Do you also accept Louis' fanciful story about dropping the lyric sheet
> > during the recording of "Heebie Jeebies" thereby inventing 'scat
> > singing'? (Bergreen, also page 131)?
>
> Dear Bill, on "Heebie Jeebies," you mean "In his Own Words" page 131-32,
Not
> Bergreen. Do I accept it? Well I would say it is murky. :-) VBG
>
> > Or Louis authorship claim on page 136 for Miss Lil's "Hotter Than That"?
> > Laurence Bergreen who wrote 'Louis Armstrong An Extravagant Life'
> > (1998. Harper Collins) is an excellent, readable research writer with a
> > few fine books to his credit. (I have those on Capone and Irving
> > Berlin.)
>
> That claim to is "In His Own Words" page 136, Not Bergreen. Once again, I
> would say this too is murky.
>
> > However, he certainly relied heavily on previously published material.
> > (Unfortunately, a few of the 'facts' and opinions on other matters in
> > the Louis book are plainly wrong.)
>
> Yes Bergreen did that for sure.
>
> > And as you know, when Joe Glaser ruthlessly and successfully 'assumed'
> > Louis' affairs in 1935 he apparently hated Lil Armstrong with a passion
> > and wanted her well out of the way.
>
> Oh yes, I certainly agree. Louis wanted her well out of the way also.
> especially after Alpha came on the scene.
>
> > Murky at best? I agree. But you did ask for my opinion.
> > 8>)
>
> Yes, and I value it.
>
> > Did Louis lie? You can bet he did. If embellishing the truth is lying.
> > The older jazz musicians did it all the time.
> > Perhaps, because Louis was the greatest jazzman that ever lived, we
> > also expect him to be a brilliant composer.
> > But by all accounts he wasn't and has too few sole compositions to his
> > credit, notwithstanding the long ASCAP listing.
> > Nothing wrong with that. There were many great musicians who didn't
> > contribute to the jazz lexicon. And there were quite a few musical
> > journeymen who wrote some magnificent songs.
> > Louis would certainly have contributed to some of Lil's early
> > compositions. As did King Oliver (and he to hers.)
> > The lure of royalties wasn't so important back then. It was what our
> > early music was all about.
>
> No argument from me. All I am saying is that in my mind, there is a
question
> as to whether Louis or Lil wrote "Struttin" and by extension "Hotter Than
> That",  "Sister Kate" etc. . . The copyright holder is no indication of
who
> wrote what during the early days. Same with songs like Tiger Rag, Livery
> Stable Blues etc., etc. He who won the law suit (if any) or got there
first
> with the copyright, e.g. W.C. Handy, is in many cases, not the composer.
>
> Regarding Louis, at the time he probably could not write music. Lil could,
> and she was just as much an embellisher as anyone else. So IF Louis
> composed, Lil wrote it down and could easily put L. Armstrong down as
> composer fooling him while taking credit after they drifted apart. So I
> question who wrote what. Did the original composer credit say L. Armstrong
> or Lillian Armstrong? In the back of my mind is a nagging feeling that the
> composer credit was originally "L. Armstrong."
>
> It happened a long time ago and memories are fuzzy. Plus, even short term
> "facts" are unreliable. Heck, in the USA, we can't even figure out why we
> went to War in Iraq and that's in progress. :-) VBG
>
> At that
> > Kind regards,
> > Bill (please don't confuse me with facts, my mind's made up!).
>
> Ah well, we are both one eyed, eh? But still gentlemen about it.
>
> Cheers,
> Steve (Still debating the issues, not trusting what is written by ASCAP)
>
>
>
>
>