[Dixielandjazz] Struttin With Some Barbecue

[Steve Barbone]

Hi Stan:

I didn't suggest she was "devious" and/or "dishonest". I suggested that she
might have embellished just as almost everyone writing and/or copyrighting
music was in those days. (just as Louis did)

Lillian was certainly a nice lady from the dealings that all of us
(including me) who met or talked with her can attest.

However, none of us was there in the 1920s when she was married to Louis.
None of us can attest to how that marriage, or their personal relationship
developed over the years. Other then that the bloom was off the rose within
a few years.

There was a genuine dispute between Louis and Lillian as to who wrote
"Struttin With Some Barbecue". That's a fact. Both remember the details
differently. Which is a frequent occurrence throughout History.

Lillian was an educated woman. She knew what she wanted in life and she got
most of it, in a man's world. (A white man's world at that). She deserves an
enormous amount of credit for that.

Reading the history of their relationship leaves a lot of gaps. Even Louis's
own accounts of it change from writing to writing.

Lets face it, she was divorced when she met Louis. She knew how to do it and
she helped Louis get his divorce. She then helped Louis go to NYC with
Henderson, but did not accompany him. There is speculation from many writers
that she had her own outside relationships as her marriage with Louis
deteriorated. Yet she would not grant him a divorce until the late 1930s,
some 10 years later.

I don't know why, I don't care why. I liked Lillian when I met her. Be that
as it may, she was not a sheltered girl and since "borrowing", or listing
yourself as co-composer of tunes was common back then, she may well have
gone with the flow of how things were done. I don't see that as devious or
dishonest, I see it as just historical happenings.

And my suggestion that as the writer of music while Louis was playing it,
comes from written record, (which I posted previously) and that she may well
have considered herself a co-composer because of it. Just because someone
wrote that certainly doesn't make it true and I leave that up to others to
decide. I was just the messenger.

Cheers,
Steve Barbone

on 5/7/07 12:34 PM, Stan Brager at sbrager at socal.rr.com wrote:

> Steve;
> 
> I have strong objections to your suggestion that Lil would have been so
> dishonest and devious as to put her name on a composition in which she was
> merely a copyist. Her relationship with Louis was from all I've read and
> those who knew her was that she would never have even thought of fooling
> Louis. She was upfront and straightforward with him and others.
> 
> Still, I'm interested in why, in the face of all who knew her and the facts
> which have been published, would you make your suggestion?
> 
> Stan
> Stan Brager
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Barbone" <barbonestreet at earthlink.net>
> To: "Bill Haesler" <bhaesler at bigpond.net.au>; "DJML"
> <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> Cc: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 6:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Struttin With Some Barbecue
> 
> 
>> on 5/5/07 9:10 PM, Bill Haesler at bhaesler at bigpond.net.au wrote:
>> 
>>> Dear Steve,
>>> Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
>>> Well, you know that great 20th century axiom: "It must be true, it was
>>> in the newspapers".
>>> Yes. I know that account regarding "Struttin' With Some Barbecue"
>>> quoted in Thomas Brothers' 'Louis Armstrong. In His Own Words' (Oxford
>>> University Press, 1999) but remember, it comes from Louis' 1951
>>> interview for 'Esquire' magazine. 24 years after "Struttin'......" was
>>> recorded in December 1927 when Okeh (and by extension Louis) was happy
>>> to approve the [Hardin] composer credit.
>>> When the January 1938 Louis Armstrong Orchestra version of
>>> 'Struttin'....." was released, Decca cleverly gave credit on the label
>>> to (Armstrong). Lil's lawful name at that time.
>>> Do you also accept Louis' fanciful story about dropping the lyric sheet
>>> during the recording of "Heebie Jeebies" thereby inventing 'scat
>>> singing'? (Bergreen, also page 131)?
>> 
>> Dear Bill, on "Heebie Jeebies," you mean "In his Own Words" page 131-32,
> Not
>> Bergreen. Do I accept it? Well I would say it is murky. :-) VBG
>> 
>>> Or Louis authorship claim on page 136 for Miss Lil's "Hotter Than That"?
>>> Laurence Bergreen who wrote 'Louis Armstrong An Extravagant Life'
>>> (1998. Harper Collins) is an excellent, readable research writer with a
>>> few fine books to his credit. (I have those on Capone and Irving
>>> Berlin.)
>> 
>> That claim to is "In His Own Words" page 136, Not Bergreen. Once again, I
>> would say this too is murky.
>> 
>>> However, he certainly relied heavily on previously published material.
>>> (Unfortunately, a few of the 'facts' and opinions on other matters in
>>> the Louis book are plainly wrong.)
>> 
>> Yes Bergreen did that for sure.
>> 
>>> And as you know, when Joe Glaser ruthlessly and successfully 'assumed'
>>> Louis' affairs in 1935 he apparently hated Lil Armstrong with a passion
>>> and wanted her well out of the way.
>> 
>> Oh yes, I certainly agree. Louis wanted her well out of the way also.
>> especially after Alpha came on the scene.
>> 
>>> Murky at best? I agree. But you did ask for my opinion.
>>> 8>)
>> 
>> Yes, and I value it.
>> 
>>> Did Louis lie? You can bet he did. If embellishing the truth is lying.
>>> The older jazz musicians did it all the time.
>>> Perhaps, because Louis was the greatest jazzman that ever lived, we
>>> also expect him to be a brilliant composer.
>>> But by all accounts he wasn't and has too few sole compositions to his
>>> credit, notwithstanding the long ASCAP listing.
>>> Nothing wrong with that. There were many great musicians who didn't
>>> contribute to the jazz lexicon. And there were quite a few musical
>>> journeymen who wrote some magnificent songs.
>>> Louis would certainly have contributed to some of Lil's early
>>> compositions. As did King Oliver (and he to hers.)
>>> The lure of royalties wasn't so important back then. It was what our
>>> early music was all about.
>> 
>> No argument from me. All I am saying is that in my mind, there is a
> question
>> as to whether Louis or Lil wrote "Struttin" and by extension "Hotter Than
>> That",  "Sister Kate" etc. . . The copyright holder is no indication of
> who
>> wrote what during the early days. Same with songs like Tiger Rag, Livery
>> Stable Blues etc., etc. He who won the law suit (if any) or got there
> first
>> with the copyright, e.g. W.C. Handy, is in many cases, not the composer.
>> 
>> Regarding Louis, at the time he probably could not write music. Lil could,
>> and she was just as much an embellisher as anyone else. So IF Louis
>> composed, Lil wrote it down and could easily put L. Armstrong down as
>> composer fooling him while taking credit after they drifted apart. So I
>> question who wrote what. Did the original composer credit say L. Armstrong
>> or Lillian Armstrong? In the back of my mind is a nagging feeling that the
>> composer credit was originally "L. Armstrong."
>> 
>> It happened a long time ago and memories are fuzzy. Plus, even short term
>> "facts" are unreliable. Heck, in the USA, we can't even figure out why we
>> went to War in Iraq and that's in progress. :-) VBG
>> 
>> At that
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Bill (please don't confuse me with facts, my mind's made up!).
>> 
>> Ah well, we are both one eyed, eh? But still gentlemen about it.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Steve (Still debating the issues, not trusting what is written by ASCAP)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>