[Dixielandjazz] Playing in a Professional Band & Practice

[Robert S. Ringwald]

Listmates will be glad to know that this will be my last post on the subject
of Steve Barbone's obvious contradicting and outrageous statements.

I will make my final comments here and if anyone is interested on following
up on the exchanges between Steve and me, you may read below as they are all
there.

 On one paragraph Steve says, "The only way to become a competent jazz
musician is to perform live with a professional band..."  Note the word
"only."

Then in another paragraph Steve says, "IMO practice by oneself, or with jazz
musicians who are not competent, will not help make one a competent jazz
musician anymore than performing live with a professional band will, without
prior practicing. They are both important.

As the discussion continued, I said:

"If you still hold to your original statement, you might then offer
>> examples of musicians who became professional without practicing."

Then Steve makes the outrageous statement:

"OK, Sidney Bechet comes to mind. One of the most inventive and competent
jazz musicians ever. (OPINION). Played professionally well before he started
a practice regimen."

I did not say anything about a "practice regimen."  I said "practice."

 Now, I am sure that every member on this List realizes what a ridiculous
and outrageous statement that is.  Steve wants us to believe that Bechet
picked up his
horn, played some professional gigs and then decided to practice.  There is
no way he played a professional gig without practicing.  Sure, as he grew
older, he finally decided to have a "practice regimen" but in order to play
his horn well enough to play with a professional band . . . . he practiced.

Oh yes, here is another ridiculous statement.  Steve says:

"But then, I always thought that everything posted by
>>> folks on chat lists are merely opinions unless otherwise stated."

Then Steve says:

"Did I use the word FACT anywhere in my statement?"

And I reply:

Did you use the word "opinion" anywhere in your statement?

These exchanges with Steve remind me of the very old man who was praying at 
the
Wailing Wall.

If any Listmates want that story, write to me off-list.

--Bob Ringwald, "AR" as they say on the Amateur (ham) radio bands.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Barbone" <barbonestreet at earthlink.net>
To: "Bob Ringwald" <robert at ringwald.com>
Cc: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 11:10 PM
Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Playing in a Professional Band & Practice


> "Robert S. Ringwald" <robert at ringwald.com>
>
>
>> BOB: You contradict yourself in this post.  Here you say
>>
>>> STEVE: "The only way to become a competent jazz musician is to perform
>>> live
>>> with a professional band..."
>>
>> BOB I object to the words "only way."
>
> Let me try once more to help you understand what I wrote. I understand
> that
> you object to "only way". What I assumed is that most people reading that
> sentence would realize that it means after one has done everything else
> (like buying/renting a horn, learning to make a joyful noise with it,
> etc).
>
>
>> BOB No, practice is one of the ingredients of becoming a professional
>> musician. Sitting in with a professional band is another important
>> ingredient.
>> But merely sitting in with a professional musician is certainly not "the
>> only
>> way."
>
> I agree.  Note: I am opining about "competent jazz musicians", rather than
> professional musicians per se, as you write above. After one learns music
> one is still not a "competent" jazz musician. In order to become a
> "competent" jazz musician, IMO, one must then play in one or more
> professional jazz bands. Therefore the "only" way to become a competent
> jazz
> musician is to play in a professional band. That statement does not
> exclude
> the other prerequisites, like picking up an instrument, learning to play
> it,
> and practice which is how one learns to play it.
>
>
>>> Steve: IMO practice by oneself, or with jazz musicians who are not
>>> competent,
>>>will not help make one a competent jazz musician anymore than performing
>>>live
>>>with a professional band will, without prior practicing. They are both
>>>important.
>
>> BOB: In your previous paragraph you contradict your previous statement
>> where
>> you say that the "only way."  Now you admit that practice is important.
>> "without prior practicing. They are both important."
>
> There is no contradiction there except that you wrongly inferred from my
> statement that I said playing with a professional band, BY ITSELF, will
> make
> one a competent jazz musician. I thought it would be obvious that one
> first
> has to know how to play the instrument which means practice.
>>
>> Bob: Note, I am not taking you out of context.  Your entire message is in
>> this
>> post, should you choose to read it.
>
> I agree, you are not taking me out of context, just misunderstanding what
> I
> said.
>>
>> Bob: So, on one hand you say that the only way to become professional is
>> to
>> play or sit in with a professional band.  Then you say that sitting in
>> and
>> practice are equally important.
>
> No, I didn't say that they were equally important. I said they were both
> important. And I didn't say "sitting in". I said "perform live with a
> professional band."
>
>> Bob: Which is it?  Please clarify your opinion.
>
> Clarified above.
>
>>> Steve: By the same token, however, again IMO, if one wants to become a
>>> competent jazz musician, one must perform, live, with professional jazz
>>> bands.
>
>> Bob: I agree.  however, you must also practice.
>
> I agree. How else does one learn how to play the instrument?
>
>>> STEVE: I would call that "paying dues", simple as that.
>>> Those who disagree with that statement might offer examples of competent
>>> jazz musicians who didn't perform live with professional bands.
>
>> BOB: If you still hold to your original statement, you might then offer
>> examples of musicians who became professional without practicing.
>
> OK, Sidney Bechet comes to mind. One of the most inventive and competent
> jazz musicians ever. (OPINION). Played professionally well before he
> started
> a practice regimen. As I read about him, (Chilton & others) he really did
> not get into practicing until well after his first few professional bands
> as
> a young pre-teen and then teenager. (OPINION)
>
> Now, since I showed you mine, and there are plenty more, how about you
> show
> me a competent jazz musician who has not played in a professional jazz
> band.
>
>>> STEVE IMO, what practice, by itself, does is improve your technique on
>>> the
>>> axe. Live performances with a professional band are much more important
>>> to
>>> developing one's full musical potential as a jazz musician.
>
>> BOB: I disagree again.  practicing is just as important, which you say
>> below.
>> You seem to keep switching your opinion.
>
> Disagree all you want, but my position is constant. I do not say anywhere
> that practice is just as important, or less important that performing
> professionally. I simply said it is important. How could it not be?
> Performing in a professional jazz band is where one learns how to really
> play jazz. (OPINION) Your fellow band mates teach you what it's all about
> on
> the gig. That experience is much more valuable than practice and usually
> will motivate the player to practice more in order to play "jazz" better.
>
>>> Steve: But that's another discussion entirely. My basic thoughts (but
>>> not
>>>limited to these) about "professional Jazz Bands" are that they play jazz
>>>for
>>> money and they have an audience that will pay to see them perform.
>>> If I had to do the post all over again, I would have prefaced it with
>>> IMO
>>> (IN MY OPINION). But then, I always thought that everything posted by
>>> folks on chat lists are merely opinions unless otherwise stated.
>
>> Bob: No.  You stated what you said, opposing opinions, as fact and not as
>> just
>> your opinion.
>
> Don't know what you mean. But, you seem to have taken a statement of mine
> as
> a fact, when it is really an opinion as I said above. Did I use the word
> FACT anywhere in my statement? Seems to me I simply stated something which
> you wish, for some reason, to categorize as fact. From my point of view it
is/was opinion.
>
>> BOB: Stating a fact and stating an opinion are two different things.
>> You, as
>> an attorney, should understand that.
>
> First of all, I am NOT an attorney. But I certainly understand the
> difference between opinions and facts. Is it your opinion that I am an
> attorney or a fact? <grin, joke, etc.> I am not quite sure how this
> Attorney
> stuff got started. And again, when I write what I personally think, it is
> an
> opinion. If others choose to read it wrongly as a fact, that's up to them.
>
>>>STEVE: That way folks would be disagreeing with opinions, rather than
>>>bitching and moaning about attitudes, blanket statements and other such
>>>trivial nonsense.
>
>> BOB: If you have an opinion, I can certainly disagree with it and state
>> my
>> opinion.  However, if you state a fact, I can also disagree with it and
>> ask
>> you to back it up.  In this case, you appeared to be stating a fact and I
>> disagreed with it.
>
> My paragraph above yours is not talking about you. It is talking about
> some
> other folks who go into a personal attack mode when they disagree with me.
> They attack the messenger, instead of the message. Yes, you disagreed with
> me and that's fine. I respect you for it. If we all agreed with each other
> about everything, this world would be a dull place. It is my opinion that
> when people surround themselves with sycophants, they, and us if the
> "they"
> are powerful, get into trouble. Plenty of example around about that, but
> better suited perhaps, to political chat lists.
>
> People have a right to disagree.  I would loudly back up their right to do
> so, and admire them for it. But when they get personal, that's abhorrent.
> Not talking about you here. Those who get personal know who they are.
>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> --bob ringwald
>
> Cheers,
> Steve Barbone
>
>
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