[Dixielandjazz] Playing in a Professional Band & Practice

[Steve Barbone]

"Robert S. Ringwald" <robert at ringwald.com>

 
> BOB: You contradict yourself in this post.  Here you say
> 
>> STEVE: "The only way to become a competent jazz musician is to perform live
>> with aprofessional band..."
> 
> BOB I object to the words "only way."

Let me try once more to help you understand what I wrote. I understand that
you object to "only way". What I assumed is that most people reading that
sentence would realize that it means after one has done everything else
(like buying/renting a horn, learning to make a joyful noise with it, etc).

 
> BOB No, practice is one of the ingredients of becoming a professional
> musician. Sitting in with a professional band is another important ingredient.
> But merely sitting in with a professional musician is certainly not "the only
> way."

I agree.  Note: I am opining about "competent jazz musicians", rather than
professional musicians per se, as you write above. After one learns music
one is still not a "competent" jazz musician. In order to become a
"competent" jazz musician, IMO, one must then play in one or more
professional jazz bands. Therefore the "only" way to become a competent jazz
musician is to play in a professional band. That statement does not exclude
the other prerequisites, like picking up an instrument, learning to play it,
and practice which is how one learns to play it.


>> Steve: IMO practice by oneself, or with jazz musicians who are not competent,
>>will not help make one a competent jazz musician anymore than performing live
>>with a professional band will, without prior practicing. They are both
>>important.
 
> BOB: In your previous paragraph you contradict your previous statement where
> you say that the "only way."  Now you admit that practice is important.
> "without prior practicing. They are both important."

There is no contradiction there except that you wrongly inferred from my
statement that I said playing with a professional band, BY ITSELF, will make
one a competent jazz musician. I thought it would be obvious that one first
has to know how to play the instrument which means practice.
> 
> Bob: Note, I am not taking you out of context.  Your entire message is in this
> post, should you choose to read it.

I agree, you are not taking me out of context, just misunderstanding what I
said. 
> 
> Bob: So, on one hand you say that the only way to become professional is to
> play or sit in with a professional band.  Then you say that sitting in and
> practice are equally important.

No, I didn't say that they were equally important. I said they were both
important. And I didn't say "sitting in". I said "perform live with a
professional band."
 
> Bob: Which is it?  Please clarify your opinion.

Clarified above.
  
>> Steve: By the same token, however, again IMO, if one wants to become a
>> competent jazz musician, one must perform, live, with professional jazz
>> bands.

> Bob: I agree.  however, you must also practice.

I agree. How else does one learn how to play the instrument?
 
>> STEVE: I would call that "paying dues", simple as that.
>> Those who disagree with that statement might offer examples of competent
>> jazz musicians who didn't perform live with professional bands.
 
> BOB: If you still hold to your original statement, you might then offer
> examples of musicians who became professional without practicing.

OK, Sidney Bechet comes to mind. One of the most inventive and competent
jazz musicians ever. (OPINION). Played professionally well before he started
a practice regimen. As I read about him, (Chilton & others) he really did
not get into practicing until well after his first few professional bands as
a young pre-teen and then teenager. (OPINION)

Now, since I showed you mine, and there are plenty more, how about you show
me a competent jazz musician who has not played in a professional jazz band.
 
>> STEVE IMO, what practice, by itself, does is improve your technique on the
>> axe. Live performances with a professional band are much more important to
>> developing one's full musical potential as a jazz musician.
 
> BOB: I disagree again.  practicing is just as important, which you say below.
> You seem to keep switching your opinion.

Disagree all you want, but my position is constant. I do not say anywhere
that practice is just as important, or less important that performing
professionally. I simply said it is important. How could it not be?
Performing in a professional jazz band is where one learns how to really
play jazz. (OPINION) Your fellow band mates teach you what it's all about on
the gig. That experience is much more valuable than practice and usually
will motivate the player to practice more in order to play "jazz" better.
 
>> Steve: But that's another discussion entirely. My basic thoughts (but not
>>limited to these) about "professional Jazz Bands" are that they play jazz for
>> money and they have an audience that will pay to see them perform.
>> If I had to do the post all over again, I would have prefaced it with IMO
>> (IN MY OPINION). But then, I always thought that everything posted by
>> folks on chat lists are merely opinions unless otherwise stated.
 
> Bob: No.  You stated what you said, opposing opinions, as fact and not as just
> your opinion.

Don't know what you mean. But, you seem to have taken a statement of mine as
a fact, when it is really an opinion as I said above. Did I use the word
FACT anywhere in my statement? Seems to me I simply stated something which
you wish, for some reason, to categorize as fact. From my point of view it
is/was opinion.
 
> BOB: Stating a fact and stating an opinion are two different things.  You, as
> an attorney, should understand that.

First of all, I am NOT an attorney. But I certainly understand the
difference between opinions and facts. Is it your opinion that I am an
attorney or a fact? <grin, joke, etc.> I am not quite sure how this Attorney
stuff got started. And again, when I write what I personally think, it is an
opinion. If others choose to read it wrongly as a fact, that's up to them.
 
>>STEVE: That way folks would be disagreeing with opinions, rather than
>>bitching and moaning about attitudes, blanket statements and other such
>>trivial nonsense.
 
> BOB: If you have an opinion, I can certainly disagree with it and state my
> opinion.  However, if you state a fact, I can also disagree with it and ask
> you to back it up.  In this case, you appeared to be stating a fact and I
> disagreed with it.

My paragraph above yours is not talking about you. It is talking about some
other folks who go into a personal attack mode when they disagree with me.
They attack the messenger, instead of the message. Yes, you disagreed with
me and that's fine. I respect you for it. If we all agreed with each other
about everything, this world would be a dull place. It is my opinion that
when people surround themselves with sycophants, they, and us if the "they"
are powerful, get into trouble. Plenty of example around about that, but
better suited perhaps, to political chat lists.

People have a right to disagree.  I would loudly back up their right to do
so, and admire them for it. But when they get personal, that's abhorrent.
Not talking about you here. Those who get personal know who they are.

> 
> Best,
> 
> --bob ringwald
 
Cheers,
Steve Barbone