[Dixielandjazz] Pay Scales/The Devil Is In the Details

Fri Apr 6 17:37:00 PDT 2007

Hi Ginny and Folks:

Start high and ask pertinent questions of the prospective buyer, the 
more you know about them the better you can summarize the conversation 
and their needs and determine what kind of money you can and should 
charge for your services.

I say start high, because you can always come down and or deduct for a 
charitable situation or hardship case or smaller venue etc.
I always start by telling them how much we make on the high end gigs, 
which explains and justifies to them that they are talking to a 
professional and first class attraction worth the money I am asking.  I 
go into details to justify my fees and if they still say oh we could 
never afford that, I ask them to tell me more about their situation and 
what they would be able to afford and I would be happy to discuss it 
with the guys and maybe they would do it if indeed we have the date 
available and want to play.

Amazingly they usually come up with an offer not to far off what I  
quoted once they know what price range we are dealing with, now the 
bargaining comes from the fact that I start with a ten to 13 member 
show and won't take anything less than an 8 member show.  If they can't 
or won't afford that then they don't get Saint Gabriel's Celestial 
Brass Band and Authentic New Orleans Jazz Funeral band.

You can always come down on your price quote to get a specific gig and 
maybe even justify doing it , however we are like Hookers in the minds 
of buyers, so once you establish your lowest price, that's what they 
will offer you for ever and it is difficult to go up even a year later 
with some kind of buyers and especially in OKOM events as most of you 
already know.

They would get Jimmy and Joe and Leroy and Harry and Sam  who might not 
even play together but just happen to be the guys available when the 
band leader called.    Can you get a good band like that, sure if the 
band leader is really good and picks his known sidemen form a pool of 
great players, but this rarely is the case with hobbyist bands and 
amateurs.

Like Steve I have a minimum to leave the Barn and I don't budge from 
that, especially because I have to coordinate 8 to 13 people decide on 
the appropriate repertoire for the occasion the proper dress, 
transportation  rehearsal if needed etc. etc.   It is not easy being a 
Band leader, agent, manager, promoter, publicist, roadie, shrink, and 
banker for a band. :))   The guy or gal who thinks they can do all that 
for a 10% leaders fee is dreaming nightmares :))

Those that do it earn whatever they make.

Cheers,

Tom " Show me the money" Wiggins

-----Original Message-----
From: Gluetje1 at aol.com
To: Tcashwigg at aol.com
Cc: dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
Sent: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 8:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Pay Scales/The Devil Is In the Details

I appreciate the details Tom, Steve, Elizer are providing and hope the
discussion keeps going.  But some things I can't sort through.  If you  
know you

are selling a Chevrolet and not a Cadillac, you price it less.   How 
then do you

avoid underbidding the price of the Cadillac?  I suppose  I'm really 
asking
for ethics we'd like to see prevail among booking  agents.  Do you say 
to the
buyer, "I'm selling a Chevy.  If you want a  Cadillac, call X?"  Steve 
talks
below about increasing fees yearly,  building demand, (business plan 
stuff);
about not charging so little that it  screws up the market in your 
area.  Seems
a
challenge that may take some  psychic skills to discern.  How do 
businesses
(bands) start, build, grow,  and not have a cost that is less that the 
giants,
use pricing as a way  to get their product to market, etc.
Ginny

In a message dated 4/6/2007 9:51:43 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
barbonestreet at earthlink.net writes:

Dave  Washburn in Dallas asked about pay scales, what should a band 
charge,
and  for finite numbers instead of "more than the average band at a  
Festival
gets."

Its kind of like asking what should a new car cost?  Any where from 
$9,999
for a KIA to $1,300,000 for a Bugatti. Depends upon  who the buyer is 
as well
as how well the car meets the buyer's needs, real  or psychic.

Its also a tough question Dave, because contractual  obligations should 
be
held in confidence. Regarding the band fee, it was  based upon the 
average
OKOM Festival Band getting $40 or $50 a man per one  hour set, playing 
from 8
to 10 sets at a 3 day OKOM festival.

For a  six piece band that's between $1920 and $3000. Thus you can
approximate  "more than that" for the hour and a half gig I mentioned.

Relative to  my own situation, For a local gig, 3 hours or less, I 
charge
anywhere from  a minimum of $750 to a maximum (so far) of $7500. 
Depends upon
the venue,  the occasion, the clients, etc. We do not leave the barn 
for less
than $750  except to do some charity gigs in December, "Real Charity" in
Hospital  Wards, Hospice locations etc., where there is neither
entertainment, nor an  entertainment budget. And in that case, I use 
some of
my leader fees  collected over the year to pay the sidemen.

I add time/mileage charges  if the gig is more than 50 miles from home. 
If it
involves an overnight, I  add 1st class accommodations and meals.

Wiggins was right on about why  we hate to quote actuals. Basically 
because
we then get undercut by  competing bands. I wish I had a dollar for 
every
time a competing band in  my area heard about a gig of ours, and 
underbid us
saying; "We play the  same music as Barbone Street and cost less." Two 
things
then happen.

1) The lesser band gets the gig and screws it up so badly that we get  
it
back the following year.

2) The lesser band gets the  gig, screws it up and sours the client on
"Dixieland" forever  and the gig gravitates to another music genre, 
while
those  band members complain that the market for OKOM sucks.

Point being, in  any market, that first the band must satisfy the 
audience.
Then it should  set a goal of increasing its rates yearly. It will only 
work
that way if  the band is in demand. That takes a while, or may never 
happen
if the band  is no good, or does not market and perform for the 
audience, or
the band  doesn't have a good agent.

So what should a band charge? Damn if I know  without the specifics of 
the
band persona. A couple of general  guidelines?

1) Not less than union scale.

2) Not so little that  is screws up the market for live music in your 
area.
This one  is really the key. Including ALL forms of live music, not just
OKOM. That means talk music market with the local pros.

Take Elazar's  gig at $25 a man. He got it from busking. It probably 
doesn't
hurt the  music market. There may not be a union visible there. OK, he
created that  gig and under the above scenario, he is right to do the 
gig
because he is  building the reputation of his band and its music. Lots 
of us
got started  that way.

The trick is to market successfully from there . . . by  building 
audience
and appearance fees at similar rates. Like by this time  next year, he 
should
at least have doubled, if not quadrupled both his  audience and his fee.

If he is then still working/busking for $25, he  isn't doing it right.

Cheers,
Steve

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