[Dixielandjazz] Re: Jazz Popular?/Mainstream

[D and R Hardie]

Dear Fred,
                I am sorry if my comments about
your interpretation of my recollections caused
offence. You, like Daniel in my copy of the good
book are one of the good guys.This whole thing has
become what we call here a Furphy. Let me repeat I
did not at any stage suggest that the term
mainstream was invented here in the 1940's nor
wish  refute your statements about its origins.
Where or how it emerged is a matter for experts in
that field.I am not one. Brian Towers has rightly
pointed to Humphrey Lyttleton's band as an example
of the sort of transition to mainstream that
happened here too.
best wishes
Dan Hardie
Check Out the Early Jazz History site at:
 http://members.ozemail.com.au/~darnhard/EarlyJazzHistory.html

fred spencer wrote:

> Dear Dan,
> Your remark that I "misinterpreted " your
> comment begs the question.
> Literary clarity should not lend itself to
> misinterpretation. I could
> equally say that you misconstrued the basis of
> what you wrote, without
> referential support, making fallacious
> repetition possible.
> Misinterpretation to one man is
> misrepresentation to another. I do not
> claim perfection in this regard myself, but I
> became particularly
> sensitive to unclear, unsupported reporting
> during the five years that I
> spent in writing my book, "Jazz and Death.
> Medical Profiles of Jazz
> Greats". My manuscript had to be revised, each
> time, after five reviews
> by the University Press of Mississippi, and
> three reviews by independent
> referees, before it was considered fit for
> publication. This academic
> marathon resulted in my compiling a
> "Bibliography" of  some 350 books
> and other sources, to support some 750 textual
> references in my "Notes".
> Having said that, I think that nothing further
> can be gained by pursuing
> this theme - it is already approaching
> fulfillment of the Shakespearean,
> reginal, lines that we "...doth protest too
> much, methinks" (Hamlet.
> III, ii, 242 [Bartlett, "Familiar Quotations"].
> Peace.
> Fred
>
> D and R Hardie wrote:
>
> > Dear Bill And Others.
> >                                  Once again, I
> did
> > not say the term 'mainstream' was invented
> here or
> > that it was used in the 1940's. I quote from
> my
> > original post:" The latter
> > term was used in Australia by followers of the
>
> > 1940's Chicago Style to differentiate their
> > somewhat 'progressive'  music from that of the
>
> > revivalist bands  who were imitating 
> recordings
> > by Bunk Johnson and the Classic 1920's jazz
> bands
> > of  King Oliver and Jelly Roll Morton ."
> > Fred Spencer misinterpreted this comment to
> imply
> > that I was talking about musicians active in
> the
> > 1940's and that it was invented here.
> Certainly
> > not. I meant fellow musicians  with whom I
> > associated, who  modelled their playing on 
> the
> > Condon School. As Bill well knows this could
> not
> > have been after 1956. If he is right about the
>
> > 1958 date they must have been prescient.
> However I
> > did not  ever  intend to establish the date of
> the
> > invention of the term and would not want to be
>
> > misquoted again and again on this. That is how
> so
> > many  fallacies about jazz history have been
> > started.
> >
> > regards Dan Hardie
> >  Check Out the Early Jazz History site at:
> >
> >
> http://members.ozemail.com.au/~darnhard/EarlyJazzHistory.html
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Bill Haesler wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Fred,
> > > I have not kept all the posts re this
> thread, so
> > > this may have been quoted
> > > already.
> > > In the 'New Grove Dictionary of Jazz' (1988
> > > edition). James Lincoln Collier's
> > > 'Mainstream' entry  says: "A term coined in
> the
> > > 1950s by Stanley Dance to
> > > describe the work of contemporary musicians
> > > working in the swing idiom of the
> > > 1930s and 1940s."
> > > Contrary to my friend Dan Hardie's
> Australian
> > > 1940s assertion, I would suggest
> > > that it was not until the mid to late 1950s
> (at
> > > least) that we in Oz started to
> > > use the expression.
> > > For what it is worth, the definition does
> not
> > > appear in 'Dictionary Of Jazz'
> > > (Panassie & Gautier. 1956).
> > > However, in 'The New Jazz Book' (Joachim
> > > Berendt. 1959) says: "When the new term
> > > "Mainstream' was coined in England for the
> Swing
> > > style of the present, Buck
> > > Clayton became - certainly among European
> jazz
> > > fans - one of the leading
> > > personalities of Mainstream jazz."
> > > In 'Know About Jazz' (Peter Gammond, Peter
> > > Clayton. 1963) they say "Mainstream -
> > > It was found that between traditional and
> modern
> > > jazz was a great deal of jazz
> > > which belonged in neither camp. The word
> > > mainstream was coined to cover this in
> > > about 1958. It includes the music of Count
> Basie
> > > and similar bands."
> > > Kind regards,
> > > Bill.
> > >
> > >
> _______________________________________________
> > > Dixielandjazz mailing list
> > > Dixielandjazz@ml.islandnet.com
> > > http://ml.islandnet.com/mailma
> > > /listinfo/dixielandjazz
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dixielandjazz mailing list
> Dixielandjazz@ml.islandnet.com
> http://ml.islandnet.com/mailma
> /listinfo/dixielandjazz