[Dixielandjazz] Re: Jazz Popular?/Mainstream

[fred spencer]

Dear Dan,
Your remark that I "misinterpreted " your comment begs the question.
Literary clarity should not lend itself to misinterpretation. I could
equally say that you misconstrued the basis of what you wrote, without
referential support, making fallacious repetition possible.
Misinterpretation to one man is misrepresentation to another. I do not
claim perfection in this regard myself, but I became particularly
sensitive to unclear, unsupported reporting during the five years that I
spent in writing my book, "Jazz and Death. Medical Profiles of Jazz
Greats". My manuscript had to be revised, each time, after five reviews
by the University Press of Mississippi, and three reviews by independent
referees, before it was considered fit for publication. This academic
marathon resulted in my compiling a "Bibliography" of  some 350 books
and other sources, to support some 750 textual references in my "Notes".
Having said that, I think that nothing further can be gained by pursuing
this theme - it is already approaching fulfillment of the Shakespearean,
reginal, lines that we "...doth protest too much, methinks" (Hamlet.
III, ii, 242 [Bartlett, "Familiar Quotations"]. Peace.
Fred

D and R Hardie wrote:

> Dear Bill And Others.
>                                  Once again, I did
> not say the term 'mainstream' was invented here or
> that it was used in the 1940's. I quote from my
> original post:" The latter
> term was used in Australia by followers of the
> 1940's Chicago Style to differentiate their
> somewhat 'progressive'  music from that of the
> revivalist bands  who were imitating  recordings
> by Bunk Johnson and the Classic 1920's jazz bands
> of  King Oliver and Jelly Roll Morton ."
> Fred Spencer misinterpreted this comment to imply
> that I was talking about musicians active in the
> 1940's and that it was invented here. Certainly
> not. I meant fellow musicians  with whom I
> associated, who  modelled their playing on  the
> Condon School. As Bill well knows this could not
> have been after 1956. If he is right about the
> 1958 date they must have been prescient. However I
> did not  ever  intend to establish the date of the
> invention of the term and would not want to be
> misquoted again and again on this. That is how so
> many  fallacies about jazz history have been
> started.
>
> regards Dan Hardie
>  Check Out the Early Jazz History site at:
>
> http://members.ozemail.com.au/~darnhard/EarlyJazzHistory.html
>
>
>
> Bill Haesler wrote:
>
> > Dear Fred,
> > I have not kept all the posts re this thread, so
> > this may have been quoted
> > already.
> > In the 'New Grove Dictionary of Jazz' (1988
> > edition). James Lincoln Collier's
> > 'Mainstream' entry  says: "A term coined in the
> > 1950s by Stanley Dance to
> > describe the work of contemporary musicians
> > working in the swing idiom of the
> > 1930s and 1940s."
> > Contrary to my friend Dan Hardie's Australian
> > 1940s assertion, I would suggest
> > that it was not until the mid to late 1950s (at
> > least) that we in Oz started to
> > use the expression.
> > For what it is worth, the definition does not
> > appear in 'Dictionary Of Jazz'
> > (Panassie & Gautier. 1956).
> > However, in 'The New Jazz Book' (Joachim
> > Berendt. 1959) says: "When the new term
> > "Mainstream' was coined in England for the Swing
> > style of the present, Buck
> > Clayton became - certainly among European jazz
> > fans - one of the leading
> > personalities of Mainstream jazz."
> > In 'Know About Jazz' (Peter Gammond, Peter
> > Clayton. 1963) they say "Mainstream -
> > It was found that between traditional and modern
> > jazz was a great deal of jazz
> > which belonged in neither camp. The word
> > mainstream was coined to cover this in
> > about 1958. It includes the music of Count Basie
> > and similar bands."
> > Kind regards,
> > Bill.
> >
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