[Dixielandjazz] Re: Jazz Popular?/Mainstream
fred spencer
drjz@bealenet.com
Wed, 01 Jan 2003 12:27:35 -0500
Dear Richard,
Thank you. This is the point I was trying to make about the global origin
of "Mainstream". I was hoping that Dan could document his statement that
"The latter term [mainstream] was used in Australia by followers of the
1940s Chicago style...". Unless Dan can do this, which seems to be the
case, the question remains who coined the word "mainstream", and when and
where did this occur? The usually accepted view is that Stanley Dance did
this in the 1950s in the USA. This perhaps appears to be nitpicking, but,
as James Lincoln Collier said in the final sentence of his scathing
commentary on "The Critics, "In sum, if we are to have a discipline of
jazz studies worthy of the taxpayers' support, it must bring itself up to
the standards of the academy" ("Jazz. The American Theme Song", 1993).
There are too many unsubstantiated "facts" in jazz history, some of which
pertaining to medicien I hope I have corrected. All the best for 2003.
Fred
I
ijazzfact wrote:
> Hi Dan
>
> You singled out Australian jazz as "Australian jazz, whether up to date
> or truly ancient, is fundamentally derivative".
>
> Surly then all jazz including the American experience fits that
> category.
>
> I would have thought considering the global nature of the art form that
> the purist would be looking at the world stage to find the original,
> rather than music from a geographic zone.
>
> Regards
>
> Richard Stevens
> www.ozemail.com.au/~jazzfact/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dixielandjazz-admin@ml.islandnet.com
> [mailto:dixielandjazz-admin@ml.islandnet.com] On Behalf Of D and R
> Hardie
> Sent: Wednesday, 1 January 2003 9:17 AM
> To: fred spencer
> Cc: DJML
> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Re: Jazz Popular?/Mainstream
>
> Dear Fred,
> I did not suggest that the style
> originated in Australia, merely that the term
> Mainstream was used by some musicians here to
> describe their middle of the road music.Its not a
> myth I would want to perpetuate. I don't think
> they had it in them to invent anything, and they
> probably got the word, like everything else they
> did, from a US source, most likely from a local
> journalist aping US counterparts. It gave them an
> acceptable platform in between the 'really square'
> and the 'truly hip'. I would have thought the
> timing was late 1940's to early fifties, fairly
> late in the bop era. Australian jazz, whether up
> to date or truly ancient, is fundamentally
> derivitive.
>
> regards Dan Hardie
> Check Out the Early Jazz History site at:
> http://members.ozemail.com.au/~darnhard/EarlyJazzHistory.html
>
> fred spencer wrote:
>
> > Dan,
> > Several jazz scholars say that "Mainstream" was
> > coined by Stanley Dance
> > in the 1950s (e.g. Peter Clayton and Peter
> > Gammond, "TheGuinness Jazz
> > Companion", and Barry Kernfeld, "New Grove
> > Dictionary of Jazz"). Do you
> > have some documentation to support your
> > statement that the "style"
> > originated in Australia in the 1940s? If so,
> > this should be broadcast
> > throughout the jazz world as it would dispel
> > another jazz myth. Best
> > wishes.
> > Fred
> >
> > D and R Hardie wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all.
> > > I had begun to wonder where
> > the
> > > list was going with all this remote stuff,
> > > until someone questioned whether jazz had
> > ever
> > > been popular. Of course, jazz was the pop
> > music of
> > > the roaring twenties; one commentator
> > reporting
> > > that there were over 10000 jazz bands in the
> > US
> > > in that decade. It was also hugely popular in
> > > Britain and Europe at that time. Scott
> > Fitzgerald
> > > called it the Jazz Age, saying it began with
> > the
> > > introduction of Prohibition in 1919 and ended
> > with
> > > the Stock Market Crash of 1929. The pop
> > audience
> > > of the thirties and forties were then
> > introduced
> > > to Swing and thought the earlier music out of
> >
> > > date -'square' they called it . Most of them
> > were
> > > probably never really conscious that Swing
> > was a
> > > form of jazz, or at least its descendant.
> > > Perhaps it is not important
> > for
> > > the young to have a sense of history. But if
> > we
> > > are to understand the meaning of terms like
> > > Classic Jazz or Mainstream Jazz some
> > historical
> > > perspective would seem to be needed. The
> > latter
> > > term was used in Australia by followers of the
> >
> > > 1940's Chicago Style to differentiate their
> > > somewhat 'progressive' music from that of the
> >
> > > revivalist bands who were imitating
> > recordings
> > > by Bunk Johnson and the Classic 1920's jazz
> > bands
> > > of King Oliver and Jelly Roll Morton . It
> > seems
> > > it may have have had a broader meaning
> > elsewhere.
> > > Adulation, including the adoration of Louis
> > > Armstrong, seems to have been generational
> > too,
> > > some fans cling to their idols on until old
> > age.
> > > My father adored the Jazz Singer. Miles Davis
> >
> > > music is not MKOM but I suppose its a type of
> > > modern jazz..
> > > Regards
> > > Dan Hardie
> > > Check Out the Early Jazz History site at:
> > >
> > http://members.ozemail.com.au/~darnhard/EarlyJazzHistory.html
> >
> > >
> > > briantowers wrote:
> > >
> > > > Personally I find his playing a total bore.
> > My
> > > > ears hear a weak skinny
> > > > tone; little rhythm; no humour or fun.
> > > > Mournful, whining self-conscious stuff -
> > > > absolutely none of the essential
> > > > ingredients and nothing to do with jazz as I
> >
> > > > know it - the music of
> > > > Armstrong, Morton, Oliver, Waller and
> > company.
> > > > The seemingly mindless
> > > > adulation he enjoys always puzzles me.
> > > >
> > > > But that is just my opinion. Millions of
> > people
> > > > out there think it is jazz
> > > > and think it is great. To each his own.
> > > >
> > > > A Happy New Year to Everyone!
> > > > Brian Towers,
> > > > Hot Five Jazzmakers, Toronto, Canada
> > > > Band web site:
> > > > http://hotfivejazz.tripod.com
> > > > Newsletter:
> > > > http://hotfivejazz.tripod.com/TJM
> > > > New Year's Eve Bash:
> > > > http://hotfivejazz.tripod.com/nye
> > > >
> > > > Ted Wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Does the list not like Miles Davis?- he is
> > not
> > > > OKOM but is a great jazz
> > > > > player with few notes-Ted Borodofsky
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > > > Dixielandjazz mailing list
> > > > Dixielandjazz@ml.islandnet.com
> > > > http://ml.islandnet.com/mailma
> > > > /listinfo/dixielandjazz
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > > Dixielandjazz mailing list
> > > Dixielandjazz@ml.islandnet.com
> > >
> > http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Dixielandjazz mailing list
> > Dixielandjazz@ml.islandnet.com
> > http://ml.islandnet.com/mailma
> > /listinfo/dixielandjazz
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dixielandjazz mailing list
> Dixielandjazz@ml.islandnet.com
> http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz
>
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.431 / Virus Database: 242 - Release Date: 17/12/2002
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.431 / Virus Database: 242 - Release Date: 17/12/2002
>