[Dixielandjazz] Re: Jazz Popular?/Mainstream
D and R Hardie
darnhard@ozemail.com.au
Thu, 02 Jan 2003 08:39:55 +1000
Dear Fred and Richard,
I certainly
cannot document my recollections about how the
term mainstream was used here. They have to be
considered solely as oral history, with all the
limitations that implies. If you want to establish
where and how the term first appearedyou will need
to look elsewhere.I would like to repeat my belief
that it did not originate here. I have not
researched it nor do I intend to.It is well
outside the scope of my present researches.
I do not understand the
so called global argument. Surely, ifall jazz is
derivative, it is derived from original US
models. All the major developmants of
jazz,including the infusion of latin elements took
place there. The purist would surely say we are
all 'Buddy's Children'. In my time Australia has
never contributed anything new to the mix, though
there have been some very good bands here, all
following US or British trends. There was a short
period when bands like Graeme Bell's were playing
what was referred to as an Australian style but by
the mid 50's even his band was playing mainstream
jazz.(IMHO).Even our modernists all sounded like
Charlie Parker clones.
I absolutely agree with Fred
about unsubstantiated facts in jazz history.In
'The Loudest Trumpet' I too quoted Collier's view
that much of what has been taught in the field is
not true.
I also sympathise with Fred
about errors creeping into published work no
matter how hard you try to keep them out. Also, as
soon as it's written, it's out of date. Even Don
Marquis whose researches I admire greatly could
be proved wrong if someone finds evidence that
after all Buddy Bolden was a Barber.
regards Dan Hardie
> Check Out the Early Jazz History site at:
>
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~darnhard/EarlyJazzHistory.html
fred spencer wrote:
> Dear Richard,
> Thank you. This is the point I was trying to
> make about the global origin
> of "Mainstream". I was hoping that Dan could
> document his statement that
> "The latter term [mainstream] was used in
> Australia by followers of the
> 1940s Chicago style...". Unless Dan can do this,
> which seems to be the
> case, the question remains who coined the word
> "mainstream", and when and
> where did this occur? The usually accepted view
> is that Stanley Dance did
> this in the 1950s in the USA. This perhaps
> appears to be nitpicking, but,
> as James Lincoln Collier said in the final
> sentence of his scathing
> commentary on "The Critics, "In sum, if we are
> to have a discipline of
> jazz studies worthy of the taxpayers' support,
> it must bring itself up to
> the standards of the academy" ("Jazz. The
> American Theme Song", 1993).
> There are too many unsubstantiated "facts" in
> jazz history, some of which
> pertaining to medicien I hope I have corrected.
> All the best for 2003.
> Fred
> I
>
> ijazzfact wrote:
>
> > Hi Dan
> >
> > You singled out Australian jazz as "Australian
> jazz, whether up to date
> > or truly ancient, is fundamentally
> derivative".
> >
> > Surly then all jazz including the American
> experience fits that
> > category.
> >
> > I would have thought considering the global
> nature of the art form that
> > the purist would be looking at the world stage
> to find the original,
> > rather than music from a geographic zone.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Richard Stevens
> > www.ozemail.com.au/~jazzfact/
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dixielandjazz-admin@ml.islandnet.com
> > [mailto:dixielandjazz-admin@ml.islandnet.com]
> On Behalf Of D and R
> > Hardie
> > Sent: Wednesday, 1 January 2003 9:17 AM
> > To: fred spencer
> > Cc: DJML
> > Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Re: Jazz
> Popular?/Mainstream
> >
> > Dear Fred,
> > I did not suggest that the
> style
> > originated in Australia, merely that the term
> > Mainstream was used by some musicians here to
> > describe their middle of the road music.Its
> not a
> > myth I would want to perpetuate. I don't think
>
> > they had it in them to invent anything, and
> they
> > probably got the word, like everything else
> they
> > did, from a US source, most likely from a
> local
> > journalist aping US counterparts. It gave them
> an
> > acceptable platform in between the 'really
> square'
> > and the 'truly hip'. I would have thought the
> > timing was late 1940's to early fifties,
> fairly
> > late in the bop era. Australian jazz,
> whether up
> > to date or truly ancient, is fundamentally
> > derivitive.
> >
> > regards Dan Hardie
> > Check Out the Early Jazz History site at:
> >
> http://members.ozemail.com.au/~darnhard/EarlyJazzHistory.html
>
> >
> > fred spencer wrote:
> >
> > > Dan,
> > > Several jazz scholars say that "Mainstream"
> was
> > > coined by Stanley Dance
> > > in the 1950s (e.g. Peter Clayton and Peter
> > > Gammond, "TheGuinness Jazz
> > > Companion", and Barry Kernfeld, "New Grove
> > > Dictionary of Jazz"). Do you
> > > have some documentation to support your
> > > statement that the "style"
> > > originated in Australia in the 1940s? If so,
>
> > > this should be broadcast
> > > throughout the jazz world as it would dispel
>
> > > another jazz myth. Best
> > > wishes.
> > > Fred
> > >
> > > D and R Hardie wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi all.
> > > > I had begun to wonder
> where
> > > the
> > > > list was going with all this remote
> stuff,
> > > > until someone questioned whether jazz
> had
> > > ever
> > > > been popular. Of course, jazz was the pop
> > > music of
> > > > the roaring twenties; one commentator
> > > reporting
> > > > that there were over 10000 jazz bands in
> the
> > > US
> > > > in that decade. It was also hugely popular
> in
> > > > Britain and Europe at that time. Scott
> > > Fitzgerald
> > > > called it the Jazz Age, saying it began
> with
> > > the
> > > > introduction of Prohibition in 1919 and
> ended
> > > with
> > > > the Stock Market Crash of 1929. The pop
> > > audience
> > > > of the thirties and forties were then
> > > introduced
> > > > to Swing and thought the earlier music
> out of
> > >
> > > > date -'square' they called it . Most of
> them
> > > were
> > > > probably never really conscious that
> Swing
> > > was a
> > > > form of jazz, or at least its descendant.
> > > > Perhaps it is not
> important
> > > for
> > > > the young to have a sense of history. But
> if
> > > we
> > > > are to understand the meaning of terms
> like
> > > > Classic Jazz or Mainstream Jazz some
> > > historical
> > > > perspective would seem to be needed. The
> > > latter
> > > > term was used in Australia by followers of
> the
> > >
> > > > 1940's Chicago Style to differentiate
> their
> > > > somewhat 'progressive' music from that of
> the
> > >
> > > > revivalist bands who were imitating
> > > recordings
> > > > by Bunk Johnson and the Classic 1920's
> jazz
> > > bands
> > > > of King Oliver and Jelly Roll Morton .
> It
> > > seems
> > > > it may have have had a broader meaning
> > > elsewhere.
> > > > Adulation, including the adoration of
> Louis
> > > > Armstrong, seems to have been generational
>
> > > too,
> > > > some fans cling to their idols on until
> old
> > > age.
> > > > My father adored the Jazz Singer. Miles
> Davis
> > >
> > > > music is not MKOM but I suppose its a type
> of
> > > > modern jazz..
> > > > Regards
> > > > Dan Hardie
> > > > Check Out the Early Jazz History site at:
> > > >
> > >
> http://members.ozemail.com.au/~darnhard/EarlyJazzHistory.html
>
> > >
> > > >
> > > > briantowers wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Personally I find his playing a total
> bore.
> > > My
> > > > > ears hear a weak skinny
> > > > > tone; little rhythm; no humour or fun.
> > > > > Mournful, whining self-conscious stuff -
>
> > > > > absolutely none of the essential
> > > > > ingredients and nothing to do with jazz
> as I
> > >
> > > > > know it - the music of
> > > > > Armstrong, Morton, Oliver, Waller and
> > > company.
> > > > > The seemingly mindless
> > > > > adulation he enjoys always puzzles me.
> > > > >
> > > > > But that is just my opinion. Millions
> of
> > > people
> > > > > out there think it is jazz
> > > > > and think it is great. To each his own.
>
> > > > >
> > > > > A Happy New Year to Everyone!
> > > > > Brian Towers,
> > > > > Hot Five Jazzmakers, Toronto, Canada
> > > > > Band web site:
> > > > > http://hotfivejazz.tripod.com
> > > > > Newsletter:
> > > > > http://hotfivejazz.tripod.com/TJM
> > > > > New Year's Eve Bash:
> > > > > http://hotfivejazz.tripod.com/nye
> > > > >
> > > > > Ted Wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Does the list not like Miles Davis?-
> he is
> > > not
> > > > > OKOM but is a great jazz
> > > > > > player with few notes-Ted Borodofsky
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> _______________________________________________
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
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> > >
> > >
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