[Dixielandjazz] Re: Dixielandjazz digest, Vol 1 #270 - 21 msgs

Mon, 14 Oct 2002 15:45:11 EDT

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In a message dated 10/14/2002 3:01:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
dixielandjazz-request@ml.islandnet.com writes:

> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 20:59:12 -0400
> From: Stephen Barbone <barbonestreet@earthlink.net>
> Reply-To: barbonestreet@earthlink.net
> Organization: Barbone Street Jazz Band
> To: Dixieland Jazz Mailing List <dixielandjazz@ml.islandnet.com>
> Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Chords Again. James P Johnson to Dizzy Gillespie
> 
> List mates:
> 
> Discovered an interesting twist on the Gm6 chord with the E in the root,
> (first mentioned by John Farrell) that James P. Johnson wrote in the
> 12th bar of the chorus to "Charleston". circa 1924. The notes of that
> chord, per the original sheet music are:  E, G, Bb, D. Now, note the
> following quote from Dizzy Gillespie in 'Downbeat', May 1961. He was
> talking about Thelonious Monk and "modern chords".
> 
> "I can remember when nobody except us played the chord progression Am7
> to D7, to Db. That was one of the chord progressions I showed Monk." And
> thern Dizzy continued:
> 
> "But Monk was the first to use Em7 with a flatted fifth, or as some call
> it an E half-diminished. Monk just called it a Gm6 with an E in the
> base."
> 
> What are the notes to an Em7b5?  Same as Gm6 with the E in the base.  E,
> G, Bb, D.
> 
> Gm6 with E as the root?  Isn't that what James P called the Em7b5?  Well
> before Monk? And since JPJ was one of Monk's first heroes, it would
> follow that Monk picked up on it from him, no?
> 
> Why didn't they call it Em7b5? On JPJ's part, perhaps because in
> Dixieland or Jazz at the time, there was a rule that you didn't flat
> fifths?  What was it Eddie Condon said: "We don't flat our fifths, we
> drink them?" ;-)
> 
> If the notes to Em7b5 are the same as Gm6 with the E in the base; E, G,
> Bb, D, doesn't it follow that in "Charleston", 1924, JPJ was really
> flatting the 5th?
> 
> I don't claim to be the chord maven, and probably I am missing something
> so you chord guys, help me out will you? Otherwise I'll have to think
> either that JPJ was among the harmonic grandfathers of bebop, or that
> Monk played Dixieland. ;-)
> 
> Cheers,
> Steve Barbone
> 

Dan Spink replies:

Most enlightening comments, Steve. Thanks for the background. I am reminded 
of my own shock when I first learned that Beethoven used a thirteenth chord 
for first time in his first symphony (and emptied the concert hall). It was 
shocking because it sounded like a mistake. But we get used to dissonance 
quickly it seems. The flatted fifth sounded like an angry rebellion to 
accepted harmony at first, did it not? (Correct me if I'm wrong on this, 
please.). But then it got to be almost part of a foundation scale in the 
bopers improvisational style. I doubt that Johnson was thinking like that. He 
just happened to hit the same (or nearly the same) notes. It's awfully hard 
to be a be-boper when you're a stride composer. You just don't think like 
that.

Dan (piano fingers) Spink

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<HTML>In a message dated 10/14/2002 3:01:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dixielandjazz-request@ml.islandnet.com writes: 
 
 
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Message: 5 
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 20:59:12 -0400 
From: Stephen Barbone &lt;barbonestreet@earthlink.net&gt; 
Reply-To: barbonestreet@earthlink.net 
Organization: Barbone Street Jazz Band 
To: Dixieland Jazz Mailing List &lt;dixielandjazz@ml.islandnet.com&gt; 
Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Chords Again. James P Johnson to Dizzy Gillespie 
 
List mates: 
 
Discovered an interesting twist on the Gm6 chord with the E in the root, 
(first mentioned by John Farrell) that James P. Johnson wrote in the 
12th bar of the chorus to "Charleston". circa 1924. The notes of that 
chord, per the original sheet music are:&nbsp; E, G, Bb, D. Now, note the 
following quote from Dizzy Gillespie in 'Downbeat', May 1961. He was 
talking about Thelonious Monk and "modern chords". 
 
"I can remember when nobody except us played the chord progression Am7 
to D7, to Db. That was one of the chord progressions I showed Monk." And 
thern Dizzy continued: 
 
"But Monk was the first to use Em7 with a flatted fifth, or as some call 
it an E half-diminished. Monk just called it a Gm6 with an E in the 
base." 
 
What are the notes to an Em7b5?&nbsp; Same as Gm6 with the E in the base.&nbsp; E, 
G, Bb, D. 
 
Gm6 with E as the root?&nbsp; Isn't that what James P called the Em7b5?&nbsp; Well 
before Monk? And since JPJ was one of Monk's first heroes, it would 
follow that Monk picked up on it from him, no? 
 
Why didn't they call it Em7b5? On JPJ's part, perhaps because in 
Dixieland or Jazz at the time, there was a rule that you didn't flat 
fifths?&nbsp; What was it Eddie Condon said: "We don't flat our fifths, we 
drink them?" ;-) 
 
If the notes to Em7b5 are the same as Gm6 with the E in the base; E, G, 
Bb, D, doesn't it follow that in "Charleston", 1924, JPJ was really 
flatting the 5th? 
 
I don't claim to be the chord maven, and probably I am missing something 
so you chord guys, help me out will you? Otherwise I'll have to think 
either that JPJ was among the harmonic grandfathers of bebop, or that 
Monk played Dixieland. ;-) 
 
Cheers, 
Steve Barbone 
</BLOCKQUOTE> 
 
Dan Spink replies: 
 
Most enlightening comments, Steve. Thanks for the background. I am reminded of my own shock when I first learned that Beethoven used a thirteenth chord for first time in his first symphony (and emptied the concert hall). It was shocking because it sounded like a mistake. But we get used to dissonance quickly it seems. The flatted fifth sounded like an angry rebellion to accepted harmony at first, did it not? (Correct me if I'm wrong on this, please.). But then it got to be almost part of a foundation scale in the bopers improvisational style. I doubt that Johnson was thinking like that. He just happened to hit the same (or nearly the same) notes. It's awfully hard to be a be-boper when you're a stride composer. You just don't think like that. 
 
Dan (piano fingers) Spink</HTML>

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