[Dixielandjazz] Re: Dixielandjazz digest, Vol 1 #270 - 21 msgs

Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:10:04 EDT

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In a message dated 10/14/02 2:46:40 PM Central Daylight Time, DWSI@aol.com 
writes:

> Most enlightening comments, Steve. Thanks for the background. I am reminded 
> of my own shock when I first learned that Beethoven used a thirteenth chord 
> for first time in his first symphony (and emptied the concert hall). It was 
> shocking because it sounded like a mistake. But we get used to dissonance 
> quickly it seems. The flatted fifth sounded like an angry rebellion to 
> accepted harmony at first, did it not? (Correct me if I'm wrong on this, 
> please.). But then it got to be almost part of a foundation scale in the 
> bopers improvisational style. I doubt that Johnson was thinking like that. 
> He just happened to hit the same (or nearly the same) notes. It's awfully 
> hard to be a be-boper when you're a stride composer. You just don't think 
> like that.
> 
> Dan (piano fingers) Spink 

   If you are thinking that Beethoven used an alleged 13th chord in the same 
structure as beboppers would, I think that you are quite wrong.  I also don't 
believe that he 'emptied' the hall.  Ludwig was a top name and preeminent 
pianist of that period and he never 'emptied' halls...he filled them.

  Playing the extended notes of a 13thd chord as passing notes in a melodic 
line is not the same as banging out a 13th bebop chord.  They would be 
considered passing notes and not part of the basic chordal structure.  

JIm Beebe

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<HTML>In a message dated 10/14/02 2:46:40 PM Central Daylight Time, DWSI@aol.com writes: 
 
 
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Most enlightening comments, Steve. Thanks for the background. I am reminded of my own shock when I first learned that Beethoven used a thirteenth chord for first time in his first symphony (and emptied the concert hall). It was shocking because it sounded like a mistake. But we get used to dissonance quickly it seems. The flatted fifth sounded like an angry rebellion to accepted harmony at first, did it not? (Correct me if I'm wrong on this, please.). But then it got to be almost part of a foundation scale in the bopers improvisational style. I doubt that Johnson was thinking like that. He just happened to hit the same (or nearly the same) notes. It's awfully hard to be a be-boper when you're a stride composer. You just don't think like that. 
 
Dan (piano fingers) Spink </BLOCKQUOTE> 
 
&nbsp;&nbsp; If you are thinking that Beethoven used an alleged 13th chord in the same structure as beboppers would, I think that you are quite wrong.&nbsp; I also don't believe that he 'emptied' the hall.&nbsp; Ludwig was a top name and preeminent pianist of that period and he never 'emptied' halls...he filled them. 
 
&nbsp; Playing the extended notes of a 13thd chord as passing notes in a melodic line is not the same as banging out a 13th bebop chord.&nbsp; They would be considered passing notes and not part of the basic chordal structure.&nbsp; 
 
JIm Beebe</HTML>

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