[Dixielandjazz] Dixieland Has meaning
Charles Suhor
csuhor at zebra.net
Sat Mar 18 14:38:09 EDT 2023
There are two different disputes here. The "Dixieland vs. bebop/modern jazz" one goes back to the 1940s and is the one Gordon is referring to. Much of jazz in every style has power and beauty to me, from Bunk to Monk, between and beyond. The recent dispute I was talking about was about the word "Dixieland," not the music. The objection to it is that DIXIELAND has racist associations, calling up images of de land ob cotton and the Confederate South. Surely, no musician or band that doesn't want to have the Dixieland label should be respected.
This isn't just a matter of political correctness but a a true point of offensiveness to musicians who don’t want to be identified with "Dixie." Yet, the music that grew after the early foundational jazz—Condon, the Bobcats. Muggsy, Bonano, etc.—did in fact come to have that name for decades, as a point of history, and we ave no way sensible of denying that. The woed "Trad" has different history and and stylistic qualities; "Traditional jazz" harks back to foundational.
There's no agreed on, easy of handling this. My preferred term, "post-foundational/pre-swing" jazz, captures it but is a mouthful and not likely to make it into common usage. When I continue to use the terms "Dixieland band./jazz./style,” I briefly acknowledge the problem and explain that I mean--well the post-foundational, pre-swing style that grew in the late twenties, and I give a few examples.
Charlie
> On Mar 18, 2023, at 10:16 AM, Gordon Pascoe <bryher at shaw.ca <mailto:bryher at shaw.ca>> wrote:
>
> From a long-term lurker.
> Charles Suhor mentioned about a “recent dispute” about no longer using the term “Dixieland.” For me there is no dispute whatsoever. Dixieland land style traditional jazz has real meaning. It is not “jazz” as played by the mis-named mis-named by “modern jazz” movement. Beloved by colleges and uni’s. Long solos to show off the virtuoso of varies band members. Frequently undanceable. The playing of “Standards” that are no longer recognisable. Using Big Band charts by (name the great Band Leader, say Glen Miller) but not playing his chart. The art of melody dead and buried by technical misuse and abuse of technique.
> Dixieland and (being originally UK) “Traditional Jazz” are what I go to Festivals to hear. Organizers bring in other styles of bands and that add nice variety. But when the band line-up is swamped by non-traditional bands has always been the signal that this is a festival that in trying to bring in a new clientele are actually shooting themselves in the foot. Younger people will love genuine Dixieland if given the chance. A friend of mine went to San Diego to hear Dixieland and there was so much choice he and his girl friend ended up going to rooms that played some sort of “pop” that they could have heard back home thus hinting that htere is no need to go to the festival.
> Dixieland has a place in the history of music and dance. It is unique. Astonishingly so. The tunes are magnificent. Keep playing them and enjoying them as Old Friends.
> Sorry. I shall go back to lurking.
> Gordon Pascoe
> Nanaimo, British Columbia.
>
> From: Charles Suhor [mailto:csuhor at zebra.net <mailto:csuhor at zebra.net>]
> Sent: March 17, 2023 9:44 PM
> To: Gordon Pascoe
> Cc: Dixieland Jazz Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] testing
>
> Charlie Suhor checking in here. I've been on DJML for decades and enjoyed participating in the substantive exchanges with Barbone, Marek, and others about genres, particular artists, eras, etc., but that seemed to run its course’ Some of y'all kept up with up with sharing lead sheets and band videos—fair enough, of course, but apparently not enough to reach out to the larger group.
>
> I’ve kept my hand in as occasionally elsewhere, writing jazz book reviews and producing my late brother's 2-set jazz CD for GHB, Don Suhor: New Orleans Clarinet and Sax Virtuoso. I recommend a new book from History Press by Sam Erwin, "Hidden History of Louisiana’s Jazz Age." I've sent a review to the excellent Syncopated Times, which has been receptive to my ideas about the recent dispute over banishing the term "Dixieland" from the jazz lexicon.
>
> As befits an octogenarian, I’ve moved to a retirement community in Spanish Fort, AL. It’s weird, man, being among all these OLD folks! As for myself, I prefer the the term "superannuated" to "old," and I'll smite you with my cane if you disagree.
>
> CS
>
>> On Mar 17, 2023, at 11:54 AM, Jean Marc Ternois <jeanm.ternois at gmail.com <mailto:jeanm.ternois at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Ron,
>> it could have been a good joke but in France the "x" is pronounced at the end of the word Aix, French is an unpredictable language ! Anyway I don’t know if anyone has ever made money with traditional jazz 😂.
>> Regards
>> Jean-Marc
>>
>> Le ven. 17 mars 2023 à 15:40, Ron L"Herault <lherault at verizon.net <mailto:lherault at verizon.net>> a écrit :
>>> Hi Jean-Marc,
>>>
>>> When I read your message, it made me think of a good name for a jazz band, the “Pay Day Jazz Band.” In spite of my last name, my French Language skills are not great, but I think “Pay Day” and Pays D’Aix” should sound about the same!
>>>
>>> Regards.
>>>
>>> From cold New England, USA
>>> Ron L’Herault
>>>
>>> From: Jean Marc Ternois <jeanm.ternois at gmail.com <mailto:jeanm.ternois at gmail.com>>
>>> Sent: Friday, March 17, 2023 4:21 AM
>>> To: Ron <lherault at verizon.net <mailto:lherault at verizon.net>>
>>> Cc: Dixieland Jazz Mailing List <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com <mailto:dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] RV: testing
>>>
>>> Hello Listmates,
>>>
>>> I moved from Paris to the South of France (Aix en Provence) one year ago but still involved in musical works.
>>> I run the "JAZZ CLUB DU PAYS D'AIX" and always working with the "PETIT JOURNAL" in Paris.
>>> I play with 5 bands and it takes a lot of time for me, but it's a real pleasure after the pandemic times.
>>>
>>> It's nice to receive news from you all !
>>>
>>> From France
>>> Jean-Marc Ternois
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <image002.jpg> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>>> Sans virus.www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>>>
>>> Le ven. 17 mars 2023 à 03:17, John Schuricht <john at pvec.com <mailto:john at pvec.com>> a écrit :
>>>> Still works for me!
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, 18:18 David Washburn <tootn4u at gmail.com <mailto:tootn4u at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> I was on this list some years ago. Didn't know it was still active. I'll watch for posts. Greetings & best wishes,
>>>>> Dave in Dallas
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 16 Mar 2023, 7:19 pm Gary Lawrence Murphy, <garym at teledyn.com <mailto:garym at teledyn.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> FB is so last decade 😅
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My mailing lists are all coming back online, I think folks are noticing how FB et al were walling them off; you can share an email with anyone you like!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Speaking of which, have you looked at https://jazztodon.com <https://jazztodon.com/>? A project from some jazz journalists, covers all kinds of jazz but is just starting out so a bit quiet. No ads, no 'algorithm', I quite like it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Currently at @Avalon at jazztodon.com <mailto:Avalon at jazztodon.com> if you're on the Fediverse, you plunk that into Search and bobs yer uncle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kind of related to that, we launched eighthstreetorchestra.com <http://eighthstreetorchestra.com/> as a WordPress site with the ActivityPub plugin that lets it interact with jazztodon.com <http://jazztodon.com/> or folks on any other mastodon site. Time will tell if this is another fad, but so far so good!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, 2:37 p.m. <jim at kashprod.com <mailto:jim at kashprod.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> De: jim at kashprod.com <mailto:jim at kashprod.com> <jim at kashprod.com <mailto:jim at kashprod.com>>
>>>>>>> Enviado el: jueves, 16 de marzo de 2023 18:24
>>>>>>> Para: 'Ron L"Herault' <lherault at verizon.net <mailto:lherault at verizon.net>>
>>>>>>> Asunto: RE: [Dixielandjazz] testing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dunno if it is al FBs fault. We’ve just lost a lot of members, and particularly those that did the “jammin’” (not musically speaking, but with words). Marek, of course, was a great stimulator for discussion. I always laughed as he was very so much stuck in his ways. If it was the style he liked, then it was good. He was even that way when we discussed wines privately. And, Bob Ringwald used to keep things going. And, we had some Aussies that were very knowledgeable. I’m afraid I’m not great on the history of jazz discussions. I’ve just played anything that has swing, and never really went into where it came from.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Canal Street Jazz Band is still honking, albeit having lost a number of jazz sites during the pandemic, and to economics in general. We’ve got another gig this Sunday at a club that used to feature only jazz, but now has all kinds of live music with the occasional Jazz. Next month, a wedding, a gig at a Japanese restaurant (a know, weird!), and back to this no jazz joint (they have us in usually once a month). So, keeping fairly busy here in Madrid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> De: Ron L"Herault <lherault at verizon.net <mailto:lherault at verizon.net>>
>>>>>>> Enviado el: jueves, 16 de marzo de 2023 3:08
>>>>>>> Para: Jim Kash <jim at kashprod.com <mailto:jim at kashprod.com>>
>>>>>>> CC: 'Dixieland Jazz Mailing List' <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com <mailto:dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>>
>>>>>>> Asunto: Re: [Dixielandjazz] testing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It’s rather a shame how FB has taken over. It’s great for posting pictures but not easy to use for meaningful discussions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ron L
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Jerry Gordon <jerrygordon at juno.com <mailto:jerrygordon at juno.com>>
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2023 8:19 PM
>>>>>>> To: Ron <lherault at verizon.net <mailto:lherault at verizon.net>>
>>>>>>> Cc: Dixieland Jazz Mailing List <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com <mailto:dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] testing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's alive, but like most things our age, just barely!
>>>>>>> Jerry Gordon
>>>>>>> Troy, NY
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 6:50 PM BobR <rhr261 at yahoo.com <mailto:rhr261 at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> wondering if this list is still active --- it's been awhile since i've seen a post
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>
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