[Dixielandjazz] Fwd: where does Dixieland end?

[Gary Lawrence Murphy]

I've seen Clarinet Marmalade written out in Armstrong's handwriting, and
the case has been made that it was written years before the record, but
that's a good point (and one flaw in the famous Five Pennies film with
Danny Kaye) What strikes me is all these organized ensembles appear to just
appear, fully formed; "Everybody Loves My Baby" seems to arrive ready-made
with reed-section vamps and call-response scripts. A year earlier with
Redman and Hawkins, it is a ditty dance band (cf that 1923 Shake Your Feet)
So I guess Henderson+Armstrong is a good candidate, perhaps there was no
'successor' to Dixieland so much as raggy dancebands simply swallowed the
Hot Fives whole?

I'm still wondering if there is a definable innovation that tipped the
world over from 1-2-1-3 orchestration to the next evolution 3-2-1-4 that
shows up in Henderson, Redman and others. Was there anyone that was cited
as an influence to grow the bands bigger?  I have heard it said the reason
for the larger lineup was because the dance halls were larger, so could it
have originated with Chick Webb at the Savoy? Or when Bechet joined
Ellington's Washingtonians (although they didn't record, but perhaps
recordings weren't as influential back then?)  Or did all that growing of
the bands happen independent of 'jazz', born of blues/ragtime bands growing
their audience before jazz hit their radar?

Throughout the rest of Jazz history there are some pretty clear landmark
bands who set the standard that the rest quickly followed, so I'm guessing
there was someone who pulled up with a prototype reed and/or brass
*section* and the others just had to follow that sound.


On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 3:57 PM, Bert <mister_bertje at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Marek, you are right.
> The ODJB did not really improvise, they allready played more or less
> memorised parts.
> The King Oliver band had sketches allready. When Louis Armstrong came to
> New York, he handed  a little book with notated music to Don Redman.That is
> how the Dippermouth Blues / Sugar Foot Stomp connection was made.It
> definitly was not a transcription from a record, as people might think.
> Redman never did that, he actually usually made variations on and in stock
> arrangements, as has been proved in a very interesting book : The Uncrowned
> King of Swing: Fletcher Henderson and Big Band Jazz
>
> Of course in solos musicians who were good at it improvised, but there
> really is a surprisingly high percentage of solos that are prepepared
> before they were recorded. Even Armstrong, Charlie Parker and Coleman
> Hawkins did this.They simply wanted to make good records I guess, and
> lowered the risk.
> As Gunther Schuller put it : there is nothing wrong with a good solo!
> I guess usually clarinet players had the most freedom in collective
> playing.
> We are highly misled by a business practise. Black bands in the 1920's
> were supposed to sell a kind of illiterate, privitive image. They usually
> were not allowed to use notated music in live situations. That applies for
> the Ellington, Henderson and Oliver.But they used written arrangements,
> that were memorised. There is no doubt about that.
> Kind regards,
> Bert
> > I very much doubt the "nothing but dixieland ensemble-improv" contention.
> > Jelly Roll Morton who, even if he did not invent jazz was definitely
> there
> > to rock the cradle required his musicians to "play those dots" he put on
> > paer, and his ensembles, even on the earliest accousic recordings, were
> > rather tightly arranged.  Actually, the Oliver records sound quite
> arranged
> > to me, even if those were "head" arrangements.  After all, that was long
> > before splicing, and a single mistake would ruin the record and recording
> > had to start anew.  Therefore, bands had to come to the studios prepared
> to
> > make a record in a single take, even if often more were made.  So perhaps
> > live there was a lot of improvising, but we cannot be sure.  Even the Hot
> > Fives and Seventh don't really sound like sponaneous improvisation.  I
> have
> > the feeling that this, too, was the invention of the critics.  People
> > couldn't make too many mistakes when they were paid!
> > Cheers
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>
>
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