[Dixielandjazz] Jazz History/ Viva la difference redux

[Shaw, Tim]

Dear Bill, Marek & friends

Bill, I have to agree with you about Oliver himself - in any case, his style and sound were both pretty unique amongst NO trumpeters, at least those on record) - no "French-style" fast vibrato, (Armstrong has more vibrato than Oliver) very sparse and  economical style (based on a minimum of cleverly timed and harmonically placed notes).

I think that Oliver was also the first to play up to high Bb (The break in "Sweet Lovin Man") - even when he was alledgedly past his prime (1923)  by most accounts.
Keppard and others made more noise and were flashier, but Oliver wins hands down just on the basis of musical taste, IMO.

I think the most remarkable thing about the great early New Orleans players is that they are so utterly different. 
For example, Lorenzo Tio is supposed to have taught all great clarinetists - none of whom sound like Tio or like each other.
Dodds', Noones' and Bechet's sounds and styles seem to have been formed very early; I doubt their travels after leaving NO affected them much. Dutrey likewise.

 That's why I think the KOCJB is really a NO band; it's sound is probably a bit tighter and more arranged than it might have been in NO, (but several people who heard it live are on record as saying that the recordings don't capture the live sound well.)    

 I don't think there's any doubt about the NORKS/half-way house ork being a bona fide (white) NO sound.

I think of the Austin High gang and early Benny Goodman as the first "Chicago" Jazz;
 
The South Side stuff is pretty much NO (or from other places further up river like St Loius - eg Charles Creath). 

If I had to nominate  early black group(s) that have a "Chicago" sound, I think the Jimmy Blythe/Bertrand groups fit the Bill.
 
cheers
tim


From: dixielandjazz-bounces at ml.islandnet.com [dixielandjazz-bounces at ml.islandnet.com] On Behalf Of Marek Boym [marekboym at gmail.com]
Sent: 08 May 2012 17:43
To: Shaw, Tim
Cc: Dixieland Jazz Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Jazz History

Dear Bill,
This time I must agree with Tim.  True, those bands played in Chicago,
but they came from New Orleans.  The band members came from New
Orleans (In King Oliver's case - except for Lil Hardin), and even
brought musicians from the home town when they needed replacement.  At
that very early stage, they had little time to have absorbed any
influences.  And when one listens to the bands that recorded in New
Orleans, they do not sound anything like the George Lewis band.  I am
sure that not all New Orleans musicians played like King Oliver, but
he and Dodds and some others were apparently themost accomplished
ones.  The 'revival" bands were organized by white folklorists, and I
have for the longest time had the feeling that, being professionals,
played what their publicand sponsors wished to hear.
Cheers

On 8 May 2012 01:43, Bill Haesler <bhaesler at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> Shaw, Tim wrote [in part]:
>> And how could you ignore King Oliver's Creole Jazz band (the greatest of all) - and their white counterparts New Orleans Rhthym Kings -  both recorded in the early 20s (in Chicago, but they were NO bands).
>
> Dear Tim,
> Sorry, but after intense listening during my formative jazz years in the 40s-50s in Melbourne with my one jazz eyed mates, and owning all the records made in New Orleans in the 20s, I came to the conclusion way back then that King Oliver and his cohorts in Chicago were the melting pot for what I call 'Chicago Jazz'.
> I note that lately musicologists appear to agree with a belief we formulated all those years ago.
> Unless I am misreading people like Thomas Brothers, Lawrence Gushee, etc.
> Youngsters, with more musicology degrees than I can poke a stick at.
> Oliver (who left New Orleans in 1919 and never returned), Keppard, Dodds, Noone, Louis et al took 'the sound' out of New Orleans to Chicago and beyond, embellished it, influenced the young white Austin High School gang and friends, passed it on to New York and...
> The recorded music of South Side Chicago in the 1920s owes more to these expats that it does to those who stayed home in NOLA.
> Just a thought.
> *>)
> Very kind regards,
> Bill.
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