[Dixielandjazz] Likes & Dislikes in Jazz

[Steve Voce]

For my own sake, I'd like to point out that none of the prose below was 
written by me, nor does the e-mail have anything to do with me!
Steve Voce


On 15/03/2012 15:57, Marek Boym wrote:
>> As usual, you have just written a bunch of trash about you and me. You are
>> clearly not entitled to drag musicians who you do not like into the mud by
>> categorizing them, or their music. Clearly, you are not a jazz fan, but
>> rather a fan of certain and very limited styles of jazz music.
> That's YOUR opinion.  I beg to differ.
>> You are entitled to your opinion, I do not argue that. What I argue is your
>> ignorance of what jazz is, and your stupid viewpoints about music which you
>> personally can't figure out. That plus your choice of words to describe
>> individuals in a public forum.
>
> I have not called anybody "imperious fool."  An I actually liked Zoot
> Sims, in case you've missed it, except for his "cool" period.
>
>   "I don't appreciate what Miles, Zoot or Trane plays. No one would
>> argue that.
>>
>> Then to top it off, you drag in freedom of speech while in the next
>> paragraph, you incorrectly describe my emphasis that you are entitled to
>> your likes and dislikes. You are right in that it is foolish to discuss your
>> ill will towards certain modern jazz musicians.
> Shouldn't "modern jazz musicians" be in quotes?
>
>
>
>> that you told me after I gave you some of links to Coltrane's  music, his
>> pretty ballad ones, you said that you had already heard them and would not
>> listen to more. So don't cop out saying its is anyone's fault but your own
>> that you listened to music you don't apparently like. As I said, no one put
>> a gun to your head, least of all me.
>
> Different experience.  I did not grow up with jazz; actually, when I
> was little, it was almost criminal to listen to that "product of
> decadent capitalistic culture."  So, when it became kosher, one had to
> learn.  And I did mention separating the wheat from the chaff, but you
> have conveniently avoided mentioning it, because it woul not have
> served your purpose.  Besides, even here in Israel, jazz was scarce
> (actually, much more so than in Poland of 1953-57).  So, in order to
> hear some music, one had to suffer a lot of noise.  The same was true
> about the VoA - we couldn't know in advance what the daily programme
> would be.  Both in Poland and in Israel of the '50's and early '60's,
> "jhazz" was any American music wiht rhythm.  So I played truant to my
> boarding school in order to see Elvis Presley films and find out that
> he was not my cup of tea.  Learning is a lengthy and arduous process.
>> But please spare us the descriptions of those modernists as trash, or
>> belittle what they do. Much more intelligent people than you love what they
>> do, and as a musician, I find fans like you who spout nonsense about music,
>> offensive.
> I find musicians who do it offensive, too.
>
> And I would have expected this issue to have been exhausted.  It is,
> as far as I am concerned.  But anyway, I was much less offensive
> towards a listmate who described Frankie Newton's (and Wendell
> Brunious') music as "circus music," even if I did not agree.  He is as
> much entitled to his opinion as I am to mine, and you - to yours.  It
> would have been a dull world if we all liked the sam.
>
> Just for your sake, I shall (not "piously") paraphrase the late Eddie
> Condon: perhaps there is room for John Coltrane's music - preferably
> where I am not (only for your sake I have not put music here in
> quotes).
>
> One more point - when Coltrane played with Miles Davis, he sounded not
> too bad by comparison.
>
> Cheers
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 14, 2012, at 6:54 PM, Marek Boym wrote:
>>
>>>> And then piously quoting someone out of context to reinforce
>>>> an indefensible viewpoint. Especially when the person quoted, Miles in
>>>> this
>>>> instance, has also been accused by the quoter as playing trash, not jazz.
>>>
>>> I strongly object to the word "accuse."  And true, the quote applies
>>> to his own playing as well.  Especially in the days he still
>>> considered himself a jazz player.
>>>>
>>>> Critics, especially those who have no right to be critical, should learn
>>>> to
>>>> keep their mouths shut lest they be exposed as imperious fools.
>>>
>>> As long as they disagree with you.  If they do, they are to be quoted
>>> and defended (we've been through this before, and I'll not be dragged
>>> into it again).  Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that some
>>> ammendment to the American Constitution says someting avbout freedom
>>> of speech.  From your writing I infer that, if indeed there is such an
>>> ammendment, it only applies to people who say waht you allow them to
>>> say.
>>>>
>>>> BUT THEY
>>>> ARE ENTITLED TO THEIR LIKES AND DISLIKES." (emphasis mine)
>>>
>>> As long as they agree with you, that is.  Otherwise, they are "mperious
>>> fools."
>>>>
>>>> IMO, it is very tiresome to keep hearing about what is jazz, what is not,
>>>> what is good music, what is not, or to hear over and over again about
>>>> some
>>>> guy who listened to Trane for years and considered it trash.
>>>>
>>>> WHY THEN DID YOU LISTEN? No one put a gun to your head. Only a masochist
>>>> would keep torturing oneself.
>>>
>>> Some time ago, you actually encouraged me to do just that.  It took me
>>> a while to separate the wheat  from the chaff; that included both
>>> Miles and Coltrane.  Moreover, thre was the radio, and sometimes one
>>> had to suffer Coltrane in order to hear some music as well.
>>>>
>>>> THINK.
>>>
>>> I strongly suffest that you take your own advice.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Marek
>>>>
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