[Dixielandjazz] Ellington Worthless?

Thu Jul 14 21:19:31 PDT 2011

Hello Steve,

I've just read and downloaded the Jim Beebe article. I loved it! Thanks for
pointing it out.
Incidentally (and I'm going from memory here) Duke compared Jelly Roll to a
high school piano teacher [Mrs. Clinkscales?! :) ] and added that in fact
high school piano teachers played better. I think that all that really
matters is the music. The opinions of those who played it are interesting,
as are their life stories. I have every book about Lester Young that I can
lay my hands on. Would I be interested in his life if I wasn't fascinated by
his music? Of course not, as I wouldn't even have heard of him.
I've always considered Feather to be a rather sad case. He always wanted to
make it as a musician but couldn't in the company he aspired to. Maybe only
a psychologist could say why he became so vitriolic towards musicians who
were making a living.
Again from memory: I had an Esquire Yearbook of jazz in which Feather
proudly told the story of how he got the critics', rather than the readers',
poll into pre-eminence in the magazine. He was appalled that Eddie Miller (I
think) had won the best tenor player ahead of those Feather considered
"better" (whatever that means.) I thought at the time that Feather's
attitude was the height of elitist arrogance and completely antidemocratic;
and I still do.

Phew!

Regards,

Joe Carbery.

On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Stephen G Barbone <
barbonestreet at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Hello Joe
>
> I found two references to it on the net. One saying that he didn't care for
> Ellington's music and the other quoting his words exactly as you did. But
> neither site is the actual test and/or an original source. Am still looking
> because I know Feather considered Dixieland musicians as hokey and old
> fashioned and I wondered what else he trapped "T" into saying.
>
> I just posted on the DJML what the late Jim Beebe had to say about Leonard
> Feather. And how he tried to con musicians into dissing other musicians. If
> you read it, note the paragraph where "T" disses Bill Harris during a
> blindfold test. That's why I want to see the test in its entirety.
>
> Like many musicians, and like Jim Beebe specifically, I think Leonard
> Feather was a conniving asshole.
>
> Cheers,
> Steve
>
>  On Jul 14, 2011, at 11:37 PM, Joe Carbery wrote:
>
>  Hello Steve,
>
> I don't know of a site where the relevant Blindfold Test can be found.
> I have a note book in which for years I have jotted down items of musical
> interest to me. That was my immediate source for the quote. I think the
> original article may have been published *ca*. 1959-60 or so.
>
> Regards,
>
> Joe Carbery.
>
> On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 3:08 PM, Stephen G Barbone <
> barbonestreet at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Respectfully disagree that "T" 's statement equates to the music being
>> worthless. That's a leap of faith in describing "T"s state of mind over and
>> above what the words say. As I read the statement, he simply didn't like
>> anything Ellington ever did. His words speak to his personal dislike, not to
>> the overall worth of the music. The statement speaks for itself and to read
>> more into would  be presumptuous. I respectfully submit that some musicians
>> may dislike Ellington's music, however, to answer your question, if they
>> cannot see the worth, or value, or influence on a worldwide basis of
>> Ellington's band and Ellington's compositions, and Ellington's genius then
>> they are indeed damn fools.
>>
>> BTW, can you give me a site that has the Teagarden-Feather blindfold test
>> verbatim? I'd like to see it in its entirety. Especially what he thought
>> about other songs.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Steve Barbone
>> www.myspace.com/barbonestreetjazzband
>>
>>
>>
>>  On Jul 14, 2011, at 7:42 PM, Joe Carbery wrote:
>>
>>  Dear Steve,
>>
>> Here is how I initially posted the reference to Jack Teagarden. Perhaps
>> you missed it.
>>
>> 'Jack Teagarden said in a Leonard Feather Blindfold test:
>> “I never did like anything Ellington ever did. He never had a band all in
>> tune, always has a bad tone and a bad blend. I’d just as soon listen to a
>> hillbilly on a jukebox.”'
>>
>> That's as near as we can get to what he said, since both parties to the
>> interview are dead.
>>
>> Note that he didn't say he didn't like Ellington, as you thought, but
>> "anything Ellington ever did". Am I too presumtive in thinking he was
>> referring to his music rather than how he tied his necktie or combed his
>> hair?
>> This would infer that to Jack Teagarden Ellington's music was, by
>> Teagarden's aesthetics, worthless. To maintain otherwise is, in my opinion,
>> to obfuscate with semantics.
>>
>> Best Wishes,
>>
>> Joe Carbery.
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:26 AM, Stephen G Barbone <
>> barbonestreet at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Come on Joe, who are any of us the "presume" what "T" meant in a summary
>>> of what "T" supposedly said? I thought he said something like  he never
>>> cared for Duke Ellington.
>>>
>>> How about giving us "T"'s exact words and the paragraph or two that
>>> surrounds them.
>>>
>>> Plus, the definition of "worthless" would have to come from Marek, since
>>> he used the term in the first place to describe what mouldy figs thought of
>>> Ellington's music.
>>>
>>> Until we get that, all we are discussing is suppositions.
>>>
>>> BGW, Blindfold tests are tricky things. At hers, didn't Mary Lou Williams
>>> pan a Jelly Roll Morton track as "having no beat at all . . . can't even
>>> imagine how they danced to it?"
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Steve Barbone
>>> www.myspace.com/barbonestreetjazzband
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  On Jul 13, 2011, at 11:29 PM, Joe Carbery wrote:
>>>
>>>  Hello Stephen,
>>>
>>> We're getting into semantics now!
>>> Let's try to clarify things. By "Ellington" I presume you mean
>>> Ellington's *music*.
>>> What does "worthless" infer in this context? Would "having no value" be
>>> an acceptable synonym? "Value" in this instance would not be in the monetary
>>> sense, as Ellington was making money from his compositions and playing.
>>> Therefore I think it is reasonable to say the word is used to denote an
>>> aesthetic judgement. Since Jack T did not like Ellington's music as played
>>> by Ellington I think it could be presumed that he considered it worthless
>>> from his aesthetic viewpoint.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Joe Carbery.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Stephen G Barbone <
>>> barbonestreet at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Marek Boym <marekboym at gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello Steve,
>>>>> You have not replied to Joe.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello Marek:
>>>>
>>>> No, I was  trying to avoid responding to a question that did not make
>>>> any sense. But since you insist, Teagarden said, according to Joe, that T
>>>> did not like anything Ellington ever did. Therefore did that make him a
>>>> fool?
>>>>
>>>> In response perhaps to my comment that anyone who thinks Ellington is
>>>> worthless is a damn fool.
>>>>
>>>> Since T did not say Ellington was worthless, but merely stated his
>>>> opinion that he did not like what the man did, that obviously does not make
>>>> him a fool. The two statements, T's and mine are different and cannot
>>>> therefore be logically connected.
>>>>
>>>> Had T said that Ellington was worthless, then yes, he would be a damn
>>>> fool.
>>>>
>>>> Hope that clears it up for you.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding T's concerns about the blend of Ellington's Bands it may well
>>>> be, as Bert inferred, T's ears were not yet ready for the unusual voicings
>>>> and advanced harmonics that Ellington was using.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding Blesh, the man's written works speak for themselves. As Steve
>>>> Voce said, you'll go blind if you read him. (and keep putting a lot of faith
>>>> in his critiques)  Mentally blind, that is, regarding what jazz is or is
>>>> not.
>>>>
>>>> Better you should read the 3 articles Ellington authored in Downbeat
>>>> during 1939 (February, April and July) about swing music and its critics.
>>>> Or Ellington's defense of his music in the Glascow Sunday Post July
>>>> 1933, or the numerous articles and interviews he wrote/gave about what it is
>>>> he was doing.
>>>>
>>>> To me, the greatest problem fans have in talking about the music is that
>>>> they read what others, like Blesh (or Hammond, or Feather et al) write about
>>>> a musician like Ellington, but do not read what Ellington wrote about
>>>> Ellington.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding those early works of Ellington that you mention, they do not
>>>> compare to his work after 1932. Plus, Creole Love Call was a steal, not
>>>> original.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Steve Barbone
>>>> www.myspace.com/**barbonestreetjazzband<http://www.myspace.com/barbonestreetjazzband>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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