[Dixielandjazz] Ellington Worthless?

[Joe Carbery]

Dear Steve,

Here is how I initially posted the reference to Jack Teagarden. Perhaps you
missed it.

'Jack Teagarden said in a Leonard Feather Blindfold test:
“I never did like anything Ellington ever did. He never had a band all in
tune, always has a bad tone and a bad blend. I’d just as soon listen to a
hillbilly on a jukebox.”'

That's as near as we can get to what he said, since both parties to the
interview are dead.

Note that he didn't say he didn't like Ellington, as you thought, but
"anything Ellington ever did". Am I too presumtive in thinking he was
referring to his music rather than how he tied his necktie or combed his
hair?
This would infer that to Jack Teagarden Ellington's music was, by
Teagarden's aesthetics, worthless. To maintain otherwise is, in my opinion,
to obfuscate with semantics.

Best Wishes,

Joe Carbery.

On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:26 AM, Stephen G Barbone <
barbonestreet at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Come on Joe, who are any of us the "presume" what "T" meant in a summary of
> what "T" supposedly said? I thought he said something like  he never cared
> for Duke Ellington.
>
> How about giving us "T"'s exact words and the paragraph or two that
> surrounds them.
>
> Plus, the definition of "worthless" would have to come from Marek, since he
> used the term in the first place to describe what mouldy figs thought of
> Ellington's music.
>
> Until we get that, all we are discussing is suppositions.
>
> BGW, Blindfold tests are tricky things. At hers, didn't Mary Lou Williams
> pan a Jelly Roll Morton track as "having no beat at all . . . can't even
> imagine how they danced to it?"
>
> Cheers,
> Steve Barbone
> www.myspace.com/barbonestreetjazzband
>
>
>
>  On Jul 13, 2011, at 11:29 PM, Joe Carbery wrote:
>
>  Hello Stephen,
>
> We're getting into semantics now!
> Let's try to clarify things. By "Ellington" I presume you mean Ellington's
> *music*.
> What does "worthless" infer in this context? Would "having no value" be an
> acceptable synonym? "Value" in this instance would not be in the monetary
> sense, as Ellington was making money from his compositions and playing.
> Therefore I think it is reasonable to say the word is used to denote an
> aesthetic judgement. Since Jack T did not like Ellington's music as played
> by Ellington I think it could be presumed that he considered it worthless
> from his aesthetic viewpoint.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Joe Carbery.
>
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Stephen G Barbone <
> barbonestreet at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Marek Boym <marekboym at gmail.com> wrote
>>>
>>> Hello Steve,
>>> You have not replied to Joe.
>>>
>>
>> Hello Marek:
>>
>> No, I was  trying to avoid responding to a question that did not make any
>> sense. But since you insist, Teagarden said, according to Joe, that T did
>> not like anything Ellington ever did. Therefore did that make him a fool?
>>
>> In response perhaps to my comment that anyone who thinks Ellington is
>> worthless is a damn fool.
>>
>> Since T did not say Ellington was worthless, but merely stated his opinion
>> that he did not like what the man did, that obviously does not make him a
>> fool. The two statements, T's and mine are different and cannot therefore be
>> logically connected.
>>
>> Had T said that Ellington was worthless, then yes, he would be a damn
>> fool.
>>
>> Hope that clears it up for you.
>>
>> Regarding T's concerns about the blend of Ellington's Bands it may well
>> be, as Bert inferred, T's ears were not yet ready for the unusual voicings
>> and advanced harmonics that Ellington was using.
>>
>> Regarding Blesh, the man's written works speak for themselves. As Steve
>> Voce said, you'll go blind if you read him. (and keep putting a lot of faith
>> in his critiques)  Mentally blind, that is, regarding what jazz is or is
>> not.
>>
>> Better you should read the 3 articles Ellington authored in Downbeat
>> during 1939 (February, April and July) about swing music and its critics.
>> Or Ellington's defense of his music in the Glascow Sunday Post July 1933,
>> or the numerous articles and interviews he wrote/gave about what it is he
>> was doing.
>>
>> To me, the greatest problem fans have in talking about the music is that
>> they read what others, like Blesh (or Hammond, or Feather et al) write about
>> a musician like Ellington, but do not read what Ellington wrote about
>> Ellington.
>>
>> Regarding those early works of Ellington that you mention, they do not
>> compare to his work after 1932. Plus, Creole Love Call was a steal, not
>> original.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Steve Barbone
>> www.myspace.com/**barbonestreetjazzband<http://www.myspace.com/barbonestreetjazzband>
>>
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