[Dixielandjazz] Ellington Worthless?

[Stephen G Barbone]

Come on Joe, who are any of us the "presume" what "T" meant in a  
summary of what "T" supposedly said? I thought he said something like   
he never cared for Duke Ellington.

How about giving us "T"'s exact words and the paragraph or two that  
surrounds them.

Plus, the definition of "worthless" would have to come from Marek,  
since he used the term in the first place to describe what mouldy figs  
thought of Ellington's music.

Until we get that, all we are discussing is suppositions.

BGW, Blindfold tests are tricky things. At hers, didn't Mary Lou  
Williams pan a Jelly Roll Morton track as "having no beat at all . . .  
can't even imagine how they danced to it?"

Cheers,
Steve Barbone
www.myspace.com/barbonestreetjazzband



On Jul 13, 2011, at 11:29 PM, Joe Carbery wrote:

> Hello Stephen,
>
> We're getting into semantics now!
> Let's try to clarify things. By "Ellington" I presume you mean  
> Ellington's music.
> What does "worthless" infer in this context? Would "having no value"  
> be an acceptable synonym? "Value" in this instance would not be in  
> the monetary sense, as Ellington was making money from his  
> compositions and playing. Therefore I think it is reasonable to say  
> the word is used to denote an aesthetic judgement. Since Jack T did  
> not like Ellington's music as played by Ellington I think it could  
> be presumed that he considered it worthless from his aesthetic  
> viewpoint.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Joe Carbery.
>
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Stephen G Barbone <barbonestreet at earthlink.net 
> > wrote:
> Marek Boym <marekboym at gmail.com> wrote
>
> Hello Steve,
> You have not replied to Joe.
>
> Hello Marek:
>
> No, I was  trying to avoid responding to a question that did not  
> make any sense. But since you insist, Teagarden said, according to  
> Joe, that T did not like anything Ellington ever did. Therefore did  
> that make him a fool?
>
> In response perhaps to my comment that anyone who thinks Ellington  
> is worthless is a damn fool.
>
> Since T did not say Ellington was worthless, but merely stated his  
> opinion that he did not like what the man did, that obviously does  
> not make him a fool. The two statements, T's and mine are different  
> and cannot therefore be logically connected.
>
> Had T said that Ellington was worthless, then yes, he would be a  
> damn fool.
>
> Hope that clears it up for you.
>
> Regarding T's concerns about the blend of Ellington's Bands it may  
> well be, as Bert inferred, T's ears were not yet ready for the  
> unusual voicings and advanced harmonics that Ellington was using.
>
> Regarding Blesh, the man's written works speak for themselves. As  
> Steve Voce said, you'll go blind if you read him. (and keep putting  
> a lot of faith in his critiques)  Mentally blind, that is, regarding  
> what jazz is or is not.
>
> Better you should read the 3 articles Ellington authored in Downbeat  
> during 1939 (February, April and July) about swing music and its  
> critics.
> Or Ellington's defense of his music in the Glascow Sunday Post July  
> 1933, or the numerous articles and interviews he wrote/gave about  
> what it is he was doing.
>
> To me, the greatest problem fans have in talking about the music is  
> that they read what others, like Blesh (or Hammond, or Feather et  
> al) write about a musician like Ellington, but do not read what  
> Ellington wrote about Ellington.
>
> Regarding those early works of Ellington that you mention, they do  
> not compare to his work after 1932. Plus, Creole Love Call was a  
> steal, not original.
>
> Cheers,
> Steve Barbone
> www.myspace.com/barbonestreetjazzband
>
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