[Dixielandjazz] Living In Denial about Jazz

[Stephen G Barbone]

On Jan 18, 2011, at 3:00 PM, dixielandjazz-request at ml.islandnet.com  
wrote:

> Marvin Ipswich <cornet at clearwire.net> wrote
>>
>
> Steve,
> As I see it, whether a person likes Coltrane, or denies Coltrane  
> plays jazz,
> makes absolutely no difference. It's their choice. I just don't see  
> what the
> sense of your point is, unless it is an attempt to make DJML readers  
> feel in
> some way guilty that they don't embrace what you refer to as "modern  
> jazz."

Yes, of course it is their choice. But I am surprised that you don't  
understand my point. It was not about embracing what I called "modern  
jazz." Nor was it about trying to make anyone feel guilty about what  
they believe and/or embrace.

The original thread was about the difficulty of defining "Jazz" or  
"Dixieland" as  words. It was reinforced by my saying that, for  
example, some people live in denial about John Coltrane as a "jazz"  
musician. (You and I seem to agree that he was) That you don't like  
the term "modern jazz" helps prove my point that "jazz" is not able to  
be universally defined. Likewise, IMO  "modern jazz", "trad jazz",  
"Dixieland", New Orleans Jazz" or most other labels that we use are  
not capable of being universally defined.

> I certainly acknowledge the fact that Coltrane comes out of the jazz
> tradition, was employed by jazz musicians, and his music is referred  
> to as
> jazz. It's very, very unlikely that his position in jazz history is  
> going to
> be seriously affected by anyone who denies his existence. I'm sure  
> there are
> plenty of people who might, in a similar manner, deny that Jelly  
> Roll Morton
> played jazz. So what? Doesn't effect my enjoyment of his music. I  
> certainly
> don't feel compelled to stand up in righteous indignation and shout  
> to the
> world that his music is jazz.

Once again we agree completely except that I do sometimes feel  
compelled to "shout from the rooftops" as it were, that his music was  
jazz. As a jazz musician, I refuse to accept some definitions,  
especially those that would limit, what the music  called jazz is.

I prefer what Louis Armstrong said when asked what jazz is.  He said  
"Jazz is what you are."  I take that to mean each of us has his own  
personal definition.

And I prefer what Max Kaminsky said about jazz some 70 years ago:

"It came out of the raw stuff of life, but now everything seemed to be  
changing. Jazz, like Dr. Frankenstein, had all unwittingly created a  
monster in its own image - the jazz addict - who in becoming all  
hopped about . . . its significance as an art form, very nearly  
snuffed the life out of it. Jazz no longer belonged to the musicians  
and the dancers. It was taken over lock stock and barrel by the fans,  
the addicts, the record collectors, the amateur critics,the recording  
companies, the promoters, the night club owners, the A & R men, the  
lecturers and writers. These were the people who now decided what was  
jazz and what wasn't, who dictated how it should be played and on what  
instrument, and specified who could or could not play real jazz".

There is, of course another side to that. Over a decade ago I had a  
long conversation with Warren Vache Sr about that quote. He said; "Max  
wasn't always right." <grin>

And I get a kick out of Duke Ellington saying in 1962 in an essay in  
"Music Journal" entitled "Where Is Jazz Going?"

"Recently I was asked whether I felt jazz had moved a great distance  
away from its folk origins. With the present state of Rock and Roll  
music I don't know how anyone can even consider asking such a  
question!   Rock and Roll is the most raucous form of jazz beyond a  
doubt; it maintains a link with the folk origins, and I believe that  
no other form of jazz has ever been accepted so enthusiastically by so  
many."

The other side to that is that Duke Ellington was known to sometimes  
put people on so we can accept the quote at face value or not. <grin>

Cheers,
Steve Barbone
www.myspace.com/barbonestreetjazzband