[Dixielandjazz] Small Band Swing or Dixieland

[Stephen G Barbone]

On Feb 17, 2011, at 2:20 AM, dixielandjazz-request at ml.islandnet.com  
wrote:

> Marvin Ipswich <cornet at clearwire.net>
>
> Steve,
>
> I am a little perplexed by your latest posting on this subject. The  
> original
> post was referring to the recording by James P. Johnson of After  
> You've
> Gone. My point was I don't consider *that session* to be dixieland.  
> That
> session has nothing to do with the other sessions pointed out in  
> your latest
> email.
>
> Marek Boym, very rightly I might add, brought up the session by Ed  
> Hall with
> a similar personnel stating it as dixieland. I agree.
>
> NOW - on to the recordings of I've Found a New Baby mentioned in  
> your last
> post.
>
> I've been quite familiar with those sessions for years, having  
> originally
> owned them on 78 - ages before Sudhalter had written his first book  
> on Bix.
> My contention, which I can hear with my own ears, is that Freeman's  
> session
> is dixieland and Wilson's is swing - regardless of the point  
> Sudhalter is
> making. That's his opinion. (BTW, I have the greatest respect for  
> the late
> Mr. Sudhalter, but don't believe everything written in his books is  
> gospel.)
>
> In the case of the two above mentioned recordings, I would totally  
> agree
> with the press at the time, which would have placed these in the same
> categories that I have. Again, just because Mr. Sudhalter disagreed  
> doesn't
> really mean a whit to me. Those were his opinions. There was a great  
> deal
> written about small band swing and dixieland before the publication  
> of "Lost
> Chords."
>
> Here again, I'm perplexed as to why you have brought up these other
> comments, Condon's "we called it music" and Roy Eldridge about  
> dixieland.
> Neither of these things have any bearing on the original post  
> regarding
> After You've Gone. Just to point out to you, I'm very familiar with  
> Mr.
> Condon, his music and his opinions. And the quote from Roy Eldridge,  
> which
> you seem to bring up with some frequency, seems totally out of  
> context,
> since he was commenting on a band playing dixieland. I hardly think  
> he was
> summing up his entire career's work as "dixieland." I certainly can't
> believe anyone in the right mind would think that "Smack" by the  
> Chocolate
> Dandies, "Heckler's Hop" by his own band, or "Swing is Here" by Gene  
> Krupa
> (just three examples) are "dixieland."
>
> Steve, let me ask you a hypothetical question. If you were stocking  
> the
> shelves in a record store in 1945, and you had the following  
> categories:
> Dixieland
> Small band swing
>
> Where would you put the following:
>
> Ed Hall on Commodore - "The Man I Love"
> Bunny Berigan on Vocalion - "It's Been So Long"
> Fats Waller and His Rhythm on Victor  - "Aint' Misbehavin"
> Louis Armstrong with the Mills Bros. on Decca "My Darling Nellie Grey"
> Harry James on Brunswick "Jubilee"

Marvin:

I am perplexed that you are perplexed. <grin>

If you do not see my point that's OK with me. Different points of view  
are what makes up this world, whether musically or otherwise.

My point is straight forward an seems quite logical to me. The two  
categories have considerable overlap. And that in most cases, small  
band swing was by Black Musicians and Dixieland was by White musicians  
even though the two styles were the same in many cases. Even today we  
get that "Blacks don't play Dixieland" statement which is hogwash in  
my experience since I sometimes have 4 in my band. Oops, am I  
therefore playing Small Band Swing? Or perhaps Swinging Dixieland?

I agree with you that the way a song is played determines what the  
style of music is.  I disagreed with Marek's contention that certain  
musicians were "known" as Dixieland musicians. I pointed out that the  
musicians in question classified themselves as musicians, NOT  
DIXIELAND MUSICIANS. I would ask the question, just who are the  
"Dixieland" musicians? An invention of the fans perhaps?

Regarding small band swing v Dixieland I posted Sudhalter's point of  
view. He felt the Wilson record was similar in form to the Freeman  
record with polylinearity and band riffing implying that both records  
should perhaps be classified the same way. Take your choice.

Now you and Marek may disagree and that's fine with me. However those  
who believe that the Wilson record is not similar in musical form  
should cite why if they want to back up their opinion, rather than  
just say they are familiar with the recordings and it is not Dixieland  
and that Freeman's was Dixieland. That is simply meaningless opinion  
and points to the problems of defining what Dixieland is.

Regarding Eldridge's quote, he was of course not summing up his entire  
career as Dixieland. Who, among white or black jazz musicians would?

As to where I would put the records you list if I was stocking a  
record store in 1945, I can't answer that in 2011. Today, however, I  
would stock them as Jazz, and list them alphabetically. <grin>

Regarding how posts change and the content of my post, who elected you  
list policeman to tell anyone how to post, or whether or not to add to  
or even change subjects???????

Cheers,
Steve Barbone
www.myspace.com/barbonestreetjazzband