[Dixielandjazz] Dixielandjazz Digest, Vol 93, Issue 38

[eupher dude]

Rick,
if your definitions were gospel, you'd be right on.  Unfortunately, there IS no 
defining characteristic of what is named what, or why.

Tuba and bass were both common in the original era.  The New Orleans style was stereotyped
as using tuba because of the street bands, but that's probably not completely accurate.

Frankly, they used whatever was available.  

To some, including me, the word "dixieland" is nothing but a negative. The implication is
usually not swing to most of the mAsses (thanks, Sheik, for that...), rather garters on 
the sleeve, straw hats, string ties, and fast and loud.

Ask any 10 PLAYERS what 'traditional' jazz is.  Some will say Watter/Murphy, some will 
c.1932 Goodman, some will say Bix, some will say ODJB.  In New Orleans, "traditional" is 
now 4 beat string bass, heavy swing drums and comping piano.  Steve Pistorious doesn't 
play "traditional" in NOLA terms anymore.  

Bass sax is not always played like a tuba.  There are plenty of tracks where bass sax is 
used in a front line style, although yes, the more common of "the era" was in the
rhythm.  

A lot of the changes were due to recording technology, too.  Tuba likely dominated in the 
early 20s due to studio situations, where bass couldn't be recorded as well.  The aluminum
body bass was made for that and for live situations, so it could be heard.  As microphones 
developed, and Jo Jones adapted the low-boy and started hitting the hi-hat CYMBALS, things 
changed.  Styles changed.  Tastes.  Guys played guitar because it was easier for them, what
they were used to to begin with, and the guitar was less harsh than guitar.  And, the 
amplified guitar was in production from about 1932, so they could get more sustained tone,
a smoother sound, and better volume from a guitar.  Coon Sanders used both guitar and 
banjo, one player.

Some 15 years ago, Don Mopsick and I got into a rather lengthy debate about 2/4 vs 4/4 and 
tuba vs bass on this list.  It was entertaining and informational to me.  I will never 
prefer 4/4 string bass in old-time jazz styles (despite Steve Brown's amazing stuff
starting in the late 20s) but Mop's points were well taken.

Call it Jazz.  That's what it is. I tell people I play jazz, they start saying they don't 
know much about it, but they know who Dizzy Gillespie was.  I tell them I don't play that 
kind of jazz, I play things like you'd hear in 1928 or so, and they say "so you play
dixieland, not jazz."   That's like saying Chuck Berry doesn't play Rock.

steve

Message: 15
From: Rick <rickz at usermail.com>
Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] using tuba and upright bass]
 
Strictly speaking, Dixieland is associated with Upright Bass and Trad is
associated with Tuba. Bass Sax, which mostly comes from the era that
 
Trad celebrates, is played like a Tuba.   Solos are more lyrical and 
fluid of course.
 
The basic difference is that Dixieland is mostly Swing, which is mostly 
four-beat (four bass notes to the measure) while Trad is two-beat, bass 
on first and third.  As I mentioned before, the high-hat symbol came 
into use about the turn of the thirties, and two or three things happened.
+ Guitar replaced banjo  (and the guitar played four beat along with the 
bass)
+ Splash cymbal, used to punctuate the end of a stanza, almost disappeared
+ Dance styles like the Charleston & Black Bottom disappeared
 
When Lu Watters started the Trad Jazz revival in about 1942, he used 
King Oliver's arrangements (for two trumpets) and insisted on a rhythm 
section with Tuba and Banjo.  This was picked up by the Firehouse Five & 
Turk, and so on.  Coon-Sanders fans (like me) have their own standards, 
but they always involve either Tuba or Bass Sax.
 
When I was running the Colorado Nighthawks in the Springs, we 
occasionally had to use an upright bass (I know five or six wonderful 
players) and the music was "OK" but it really wasn't Trad. 
 
Perhaps, one of these days, the Nighthawks, like the Phoenix, will rise 
from the ashes.
 
Rick Jolley
Sweatin' and Scratching in Arkansas