[Dixielandjazz] Authenticity Violin - No Fooling

Wed Mar 31 23:33:47 PDT 2010

Hi Dan,

Basically I think we are of the same opinion. The throw-away line about the
violin - I typed 'fiddle' first but thought better of it - was meant to
point out to Richard that, just because the line-up was authentic, one
should still be satisfied that the sound was plausible. All in all, I think
you did a pretty good job with the role of the violin. I am not so convinced
about the rest of the overall sound. It sounded much too close to the
traditional jazz which I first heard in the late 1950s at the 51 Club and
then from the copyists playing so-called New Orleans Jazz.

I do confess to a few preconceived ideas about how a Buddy Bolden band would
have sounded. All the early jazz history makes many references to brass and
marching bands and I think this influence would have been much more
noticeable. As evidence for this, check out Kid Ory's ensemble trombone
lines against the trombone parts in a Sousa march. Almost identical, and I
somehow don't think that John Phillip copied 'the Kid'.

I too was reminded of the 1986 Humphrey Lyttelton recreation band that
Richard called "Here's one I made earlier 1986". (Hey Richard, stop
stirring!) However, not the band in the video clip, which is not very good.
I am talking about the recordings of the band sponsored by the BBC in that
landmark documentary. You can hear these on Dave Radlauer's website:

http://www.jazzhotbigstep.com/104.html

Listen to the MP3 file which is called "Lyttelton 2A", at the 00:21:10 mark:

http://www.jazzhotbigstep.com/24222.html

I think that kind of sound as produced by Humph is much more likely for a
Buddy Bolden band. But how would I know? And in the end none of this
matters. If you can find an audience that likes the music you are playing,
whatever the inspiration, more power to you. I like what you are doing, but
then I like Geoff and Paul. A lot!

Recreation bands? Gees, I'll tell you what! I have an Ellington Cotton Club
style band rehearsing at present. If I had known in the beginning what I
know now about the problems one runs into, I never would have started. But
at least I can listen to the recorded history of this band and I have some
fairly authentic transcriptions.

Best,

Grah

Graham Martin
REDLAND BAY
Queensland AUSTRALIA
E-Mail: grahmartin at bigpond.com

-----Original Message-----
From: D and R Hardie [mailto:darnhard at ozemail.com.au] 
Sent: Wednesday, 31 March 2010 3:23 PM
To: Graham Martin
Cc: Dixieland Jazz Mailing List; richard.flecknell at ntlworld.com
Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Authenticity Violin - No Fooling

Hi Graham
      Since all of the well known jazz orchestras of the early 1900's  
including that of Bolden had a violinist leader, it is surely no  
trickery to include a violinist when trying to build a model of the  
early jazz sound. Bolden had Tom Adams, Dee Dee Brooks and Alcide  
Frank and some others performing that role from time to time. The  
question is not whether to include the violin but how to establish  
the proper role for the instrument. Fortunately there are good  
descriptions of how it was done even in the Bolden band. Either we  
succeeded or failed.
         The question of the authenticity of the sound of the band is  
more complicated.  How can you decide ? Do you have a preconceived  
idea of what it should be like? How could that be arrived at when  
there is no recorded evidence? Some people might think that the  
revivalist style of the 1940's is appropriate  but there are too many  
difficulties with that. As you suggest, it might not be valid to  
expect to hear sounds like those of   Bunk Johnson or Ken Colyer  
with  trumpet, piano, banjo and slide trombone.
                All you can do is perform the correct repertoire with  
authentic instrumentation and following the performance practices  
described  by those witnesses who heard early jazz.
          I find that the sound varies a lot from composition to  
composition. More like the revivalists on the blues less so with coon  
songs, spirituals and quadrilles and mazurkas. Someone criticized us  
for playing Maple Leaf Rag but there is evidence Bolden probably  
tried to do so and evidence that his contemporaries did too. I'm not  
even sure what the reason for  criticism was - possibly that it was  
corny in 2010.
         I hope you will catch up with one of our concerts or DVD/CD's.

best wishes
Dan Hardie
http://tinyurl.com/nqaup

On 31/03/2010, at 11:57 AM, Graham Martin wrote:

> Hi Richard,
>
> New Orleans style jazz, although I doubt that reality, is not rare in
> Australian jazz. Geoff Bull gets around the scene with his own band  
> playing
> the same kind of trumpet style as is in the clip, and Paul Furniss'
> beautiful reed sounds are heard in all kinds of jazz settings.  
> There are
> others claiming to play N.O. jazz but they are mostly in Melbourne,  
> it seems
> to me. I would say the influences are definitely there in the  
> playing of
> many Aussie musicians but most do not try to reproduce that band  
> sound these
> days. I have some good Aussie mates who do not think New Orleans  
> traditional
> jazz is alive and well in Australia, one who organised a tour down  
> here by
> Sammy Rimington. He feels it would be difficult to find a band to  
> back Sammy
> these days.
>
> Just out of interest, do you think that The Buddy Bolden Revival Band
> recreates the earliest jazz sounds, or is it just another  
> traditional jazz
> band after the likes of Ken Colyer? And how authentic was the  
> "Governor"
> anyway? My apologies to my best mate, trumpet player Derek Winters,  
> back in
> the U.K. who plays that style all the time and does is so well. To  
> me, the
> style we call N.O. jazz has always been a bit of an anomaly and I  
> have no
> idea what our American friends think it is.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYxok6qb6M4
>
> http://www.kencolyertrust.org/
>
> Hey, adding a violin does not fool anybody.
>
> Best,
>
> Grah
>
> Graham Martin
> REDLAND BAY
> Queensland AUSTRALIA
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> Oz Folk,
>
> Pallet On The Floor ~ Buddy Bolden Revival Band
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU1NtCome1A
>
> New Orleans Style OzJazz ... Rare?
>
> Richard
>
>
>
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