[Dixielandjazz] More on Sopramno Sax
Larry Walton Entertainment - St. Louis
larrys.bands at charter.net
Fri Mar 14 08:19:19 PDT 2008
Fish vendors blew on a
> straight, conical horn that looked (and sounded) like a soprano sax in the
> low register.
___________________________________________________
I didn't know that but it sounds appropriate. Most players don't get a very
nice sound from the soprano. I think it should sound a lot like an English
Horn but as I said you are dealing with two distinct sounds depending on the
register. The player makes all the difference if the thing sounds like two
different horns or if it's smoothed out and sounds similar in both
registers.
IMHO the Soprano doesn't sound like just a higher alto. All the other saxes
have a very slight difference in sound in the upper register vs., the lower
but it's not gross and almost all players handle it very well even students.
Not so with the Soprano. I think that this may be the reason why it was
never included in the High School Band in that parts are never included in
band arrangements. They were published for in some earlier music. Most
everyone is familiar with the Bennett Band Books. I think there were 5
different editions only one of which is available today but they included
Soprano Sax parts. I'm sure there is other music but that's the only one I
know of that was published that way.
We have never had fish vendors here like maybe New Orleans so the term is a
little unfamiliar. Lawn Dart pops to mind though.
Larry
StL
----- Original Message -----
From: "J. D. Bryce" <brycejo at comcast.net>
To: "Larry Walton Entertainment - St. Louis" <larrys.bands at charter.net>
Cc: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] More on Sopramno Sax
> They're called "fishhorns" because, in the days when vendors plied the
> streets of towns and cities, each vendor had a specific noisemaker to
> signify his presence and his wares in the neighborhood. Tool sharpeners
> had
> a clacker. Coal and ice vendors had a bell. Ice cream sellers used tiny
> bells like the Good Humor truck used to use. Fish vendors blew on a
> straight, conical horn that looked (and sounded) like a soprano sax in the
> low register. Thus....
>
> J. D. Bryce
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Larry Walton Entertainment - St. Louis" <larrys.bands at charter.net>
> To: "J. D. Bryce" <brycejo at comcast.net>
> Cc: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 12:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] More on Sopramno Sax
>
>
>> One man's junk is another man's treasure --- I think you are right about
> the
>> Conn's. A friend has one that sounds pretty good but I have never played
>> it. He has since sold it and bought a Yamaha. He is a wonderful player
> and
>> very good players can often get more out of a horn than most people.
>> Buescher has a great name with a good reputation. I have played on a
>> Buescher from about that time and I didn't care for it but as I said
> before
>> you can line up ten horns right off the assembly line and they will have
>> slightly different characteristics even today. Saxes before very recent
>> times were not turned out like cookie cutters with CNC machines and
>> modern
>> manufacturing techniques. The instruments had a lot of hand work and
> slight
>> differences in bore and other things that would make each instrument
> unique.
>>
>> You may have a good one or I may have played on a bad one. I guess I was
>> too sweeping in my characterization but the instrument died out and got a
>> very poor reputation because of the rotten playing characteristics of
>> most
>> of the instruments made in that time. They don't call them fish horns
>> for
>> nothing. Couple that with very poor economics of the time and it just
> about
>> finished the instrument. I still think the vast majority of sopranos
>> made
>> before WWII are poor quality and would take a modern horn even a cheap
>> import first.
>>
>> About 15 years ago I played on a soprano made in the east somewhere that
>> belonged to a friend. He paid about $350 for it at the time and below
> high
>> A it was really good and above A you could play it in tune but you had to
>> work at it. I don't remember the brand and it was one of the first horns
> I
>> had seen lacquered Black.
>> Larry
>> StL
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "J. D. Bryce" <brycejo at comcast.net>
>> To: "Larry Walton Entertainment - St. Louis" <larrys.bands at charter.net>
>> Cc: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 10:16 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] More on Sopramno Sax
>>
>>
>> >I would have to disagree that all sopranos before 1950 were junk. The
>> > curved Conns made in the 1920s were superb instruments. I have a
>> > curved
>> > 1921 Buescher stencil that has the most extraordinary voice I've ever
>> > heard
>> > on a soprano. It plays in tune, but has some idiosyncracies like all
>> > saxes;
>> > especially sopranos.
>> >
>> > J. D. Bryce
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Larry Walton Entertainment - St. Louis"
> <larrys.bands at charter.net>
>> > To: "Jack Bryce" <brycejo at comcast.net>
>> > Cc: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 7:42 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] More on Sopramno Sax
>> >
>> >
>> >> Yes, I think the other writer meant the C melody sometimes called a C
>> > tenor.
>> >> As far as I know there were never any C soprano's but I suppose there
>> > could
>> >> be.
>> >>
>> >> Most if not all sopranos made before 1950 are pure junk. Virtually
>> >> impossible to play in tune and the tone is pretty bad. It takes a
> killer
>> >> sax player to get anything out of them. I have such a friend who
>> >> plays
> a
>> >> very old curved soprano. It's cute and he is pretty good on it. The
>> > first
>> >> one I ever played had two octave keys on it much like an oboe but
>> >> operated
>> >> with the thumb. It was awful. I played on a Selmer soprano about
> 1960's
>> >> vintage and didn't care for it much.
>> >>
>> >> This experience was duplicated by Sidney Bechet who tried a soprano
>> >> and
>> > got
>> >> rid of his first one. He tried again some time later and overcame a
> lot
>> > of
>> >> the problems some of which were solved by a very large open vibrato.
>> >>
>> >> Manufacturers have gotten a lot of bugs worked out of them and even
>> >> the
>> > very
>> >> cheap ones are sometimes OK. I own a Winston and I paid about $300
>> >> for
>> > it.
>> >> It's not bad at all and I rather like the sound but the metal is soft
> and
>> > in
>> >> the year I owned it I had it in the shop three times for adjustments.
> It
>> >> fell over on it's stand one time (ouch) which isn't good for any horn
> but
>> >> the whole instrument was knocked out of alignment including a warped
>> >> body.
>> >> The high register A and above was also tentative, intonation wise.
>> >>
>> >> I play a Yamaha Custom. Someone said something about a heavy horn.
> The
>> > YC
>> >> is heavy but it plays great and if my reed is in reasonable condition
> the
>> >> high notes are in tune and speak easily. I use the curved neck
>> >> because
>> > with
>> >> the straight neck the neck strap hits my thumb and I don't care for
> that.
>> >> There is a little difference in sound between the necks but doesn't
> seem
>> > to
>> >> do anything about intonation.
>> >>
>> >> The Yangasawa has one feature that is really nice in that the G# is
>> >> forced
>> >> open when the key is pressed and not allowed to open with a spring.
> This
>> >> keeps this pad from sticking. One thing I do is put a silk
> handkerchief
>> >> corner under my C# key down on the bell. That keeps it from sticking
>> >> shut
>> >> and prevents gunk build up on the pad. If anyone owns one be sure to
>> >> pull
>> > a
>> >> swab through it after you play. You do not want to start having a
>> > sticking
>> >> G# pad. On my Yamaha it's almost impossible to get to with a cleaning
>> > cloth
>> >> or even stick your finger under it to unstick it. I highly recommend
> the
>> >> Yamaha Custom but they are pricey somewhere around $3500 now but they
> are
>> > a
>> >> lot cheaper than the Selmer which is around $6100 now. The Yamaha
>> >> standard
>> >> models are also good, somewhat lighter and have a little different
> sound
>> >> that some may like. Again they are excellent horns too. They go for
>> > about
>> >> $1800 to $3200 Personal preference but if I didn't have the bucks
>> >> for
>> > the
>> >> YC I would go for the standard model yss-475. But whatever you buy
>> >> see
>> >> if
>> >> you can try it first. Personally I don't think the Selmer is worth
> that
>> >> much. The Winston goes for $800. The Yangasawa is around $5200. I
> have
>> >> not played on one but I hear they are very nice horns.
>> >>
>> >> The tone of a soprano is always dependent on the horn but the player
>> >> is
>> >> really the most important. It goes from sounding like a duck in the
> low
>> >> range to the typical cut your head off, fish horn sound if the player
> is
>> >> poor. I haven't had a lot of these issues and one thing that a
>> >> soprano
>> > can
>> >> do is project and a clarinet just can't match it especially in the low
>> >> range.
>> >>
>> >> The soprano, should if it's played well, sound very much like an
> English
>> >> Horn.
>> >>
>> >> Personally I think the Selmer pro model is vastly overpriced and over
>> > rated.
>> >> The guy that repairs horns here was showing off his new Selmer and I
>> > pulled
>> >> out my Winston and played it along side of his Selmer. Believe it or
> not
>> >> that $300 Winston sounded better than the Selmer and his playing
>> >> didn't
>> >> improve anything at all. I don't think he was a happy camper after
> that.
>> >> I'm not recommending the Winston over the Selmer for many reasons but
>> >> I
>> >> wasn't knocked out with its sound. Likewise if someone bought a
>> >> Yamaha
>> > the
>> >> first thing they should do is throw away the mouthpiece that comes
>> >> with
>> >> it
>> >> and buy anything else. I'm not a big fan of their mouthpieces.
>> >>
>> >> Since I had nerve damage and had to switch from clarinet to soprano
> it's
>> >> been interesting. For a long time I would try to use clarinet
> fingerings
>> > on
>> >> the soprano.
>> >>
>> >> The soprano is definitely an acquired taste. It seems like either you
>> > love
>> >> it or hate it with most falling on the hate it side but I think that's
>> >> because there are very few good players on the horn. IMHO the
>> >> soprano
>> >> is
>> >> not for beginners or even the average sax player. I would only
> recommend
>> >> anyone play one if and only if their tone and intonation was rock
>> >> solid
>> >> on
>> >> one of the other saxes.
>> >>
>> >> Prospective soprano players should have to apply to a committee to be
>> > given
>> >> a permit to buy one much like you have to undergo a background check
>> >> to
>> > buy
>> >> a hand gun. The soprano is kind of like a Star Wars Light Saber. You
>> > play
>> >> a high note and wave it past an audience and watch their heads fall
> off.
>> >> Now that's raw power. The difference between a good player and a bad
> one
>> > is
>> >> the expression on the face of the heads as they tumble to the ground.
>> > They
>> >> don't call them lawn darts for nothin'.
>> >> Larry
>> >> StL
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Don Ingle" <dingle at nomadinter.net>
>> >> To: "Larry Walton Entertainment - St. Louis"
>> >> <larrys.bands at charter.net>
>> >> Cc: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
>> >> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 6:35 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] More on Sopramno Sax
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Confused here. Do youe mean a C-melody Sax" That would be a concert
>> >> > C
>> >> > overtone sax -- Trambauer or Rosy McHargue most noted for it.
>> >> > Of do you mean a Conn Bflat soprano sax -- curved or straight fish
>> >> > horn?
>> > I
>> >> > have my father's Bflat Conn curved Soprano Sax, which he recorded
> with
>> >> > Spike Jones (Pass the Bisquits Mirandy"), and which he got in
>> >> > Chicago
>> >> > in
>> >> > the mid-'30's from Peter Palmer III, scion of the Palmers of the
> Palmer
>> >> > House. The young lad had decided to play sax and bought the small
>> > soprano
>> >> > because he thought it would be easier to learn to play being
>> >> > smaller.
>> >> > When he awoke to reality, he basically said screw it and gave it my
> dad
>> >> > (Red Ingle). I have it, in playing condition and might part with it
>> >> > some
>> >> > day, but not today. (I also have two of his violins as used and
>> >> > recorded
>> >> > with the Natural Seven. Mom sold his tenor, baritone, clarinet, and
>> >> > bass
>> >> > clarinet when he passed.)
>> >> > The little soprano has the most shattering god-awful bark this side
> of
>> >> > a
>> >> > Mastiff on steroids.
>> >> > Don Ingle
>> >> >
>> >> > Larry Walton Entertainment - St. Louis wrote:
>> >> >>> You will easily find my old Conn C Soprano Sax -- current bid
>> >> >>> $700.
>> >> >> __________________________________________________________
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It's interesting how much C saxes bring today. A few years ago
>> >> >> they
>> > were
>> >> >> pretty much worthless but they seem to bring pretty good prices on
>> > e-bay
>> >> >> in almost any condition. I completely restored a 1923 Buescher
> tenor
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> few years ago and it cost about $650 and would have been more if
> there
>> >> >> were any dents.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Considering most of these horns haven't seen a repair shop since
>> >> >> the
>> > 30's
>> >> >> and are costing anywhere between $350 and $700+ then spending
> another
>> >> >> couple of hundred on restoration would seem to not make sense. One
>> > would
>> >> >> wonder what people are doing with them? There aren't that many
>> > authentic
>> >> >> 20-30's bands around that would require the rather unique sound of
> the
>> > C
>> >> >> to warrant what seems to be the increased interest in the
> instrument.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> At one time transposed sheet music wasn't readily available and the
>> > idea
>> >> >> was that people could play in their parlors without extra music or
>> >> >> transposition. I think that it was the "different" sound that they
>> >> >> had
>> >> >> plus the instruments reflected the technology of the day (same for
> the
>> >> >> soprano) was the reason they didn't retain popularity. The biggest
>> >> >> reason for the C and the soprano to fall by the wayside was the
>> >> >> depression. People including professional musicians just didn't
> have
>> > the
>> >> >> money for them and they became a dead end more or less. The
>> >> >> soprano
>> >> >> revived but the C just didn't.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Either there is a revival of the C going on, people are buying them
> as
>> >> >> collectors items and speculating on them or people think they are
>> > buying
>> >> >> tenors. It's hard to believe that people are buying them to play
>> >> >> on
>> >> >> unless they are playing music of the period and want to sound
>> > authentic.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Some people call them C tenors and they are advertised that way.
>> >> >> There
>> >> >> have been some listed just as tenors on E-bay but their fairly long
>> >> >> narrow bell makes me believe that they are C's. If someone bought
> a
>> >> >> C
>> >> >> Melody thinking it was a Tenor might not be happy with his
>> >> >> purchase.
>> >> >> I
>> >> >> don't think this is dishonesty but rather people buying or
> inheriting
>> >> >> estates and not knowing what they have. A Conn tenor in playable
>> >> >> condition and depending on the year it was made and model, brings
>> >> >> somewhere between $500 and $1000 which is in the ballpark. I could
>> >> >> see
>> >> >> people being confused but I don't really understand the demand,
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> apparently is there, for the C. C's in just about any condition
> seem
>> > to
>> >> >> be bringing around $350.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I have owned three of them over the years and not one cost over $35
>> >> >> and
>> > I
>> >> >> never sold one for much more and at least one became a wall hanger.
>> > Now
>> >> >> I wish I still had them. Save your Confederate money. It seems
> that
>> >> >> eventually everything rises again.
>> >> >> Larry
>> >> >> St.L
>> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stan McDonald"
>> >> >> <stanmm at comcast.net>
>> >> >> To: "Larry Walton" <larrys.bands at charter.net>
>> >> >> Cc: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
>> >> >> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 12:46 AM
>> >> >> Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Stan McDonald -- recordings, artifacts,
>> >> >> memorabilia
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Dear fans and friends (old or new),
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I have not engaged in DJML until now, but wanted you to know that
>> >> >>> I
>> > have
>> >> >>> several of the above sorts of items posted on Ebay. Please check
> them
>> >> >>> out. I have consignonline doing this for me and they are just
>> >> >>> acclimating to dealing with my/our specialty, so you may have to
> hunt
>> > a
>> >> >>> bit for things like the tuxedo I wore in 1975 with Bobby Short and
>> >> >>> Claude Hopkins on PBS TV; one of the unique New Black Eagle Jazz
> Band
>> >> >>> t-shirts that I wore with them on festivals here and in Europe; or
> an
>> >> >>> original feature article on me in the MIssissippi Rag, Feb. 2003.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> You will easily find my old Conn C Soprano Sax -- current bid
>> >> >>> $700.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I have of course continued active since my departure from the New
>> > Black
>> >> >>> Eagle Jazz Band in 1981, when I founded the Blue Horizon Jazz
>> >> >>> Band.
>> > You
>> >> >>> might check our name on Ebay for items; the Web under my name, and
>> > also
>> >> >>> our web site: www.bluehorizonjazzband -- and come and hear us live
>> > when
>> >> >>> in the Boston area.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> This is my first venture with Ebay, but I have a great deal more
>> >> >>> stuff
>> >> >>> to put up, depending upon how consignonline works out. I'd
> appreciate
>> >> >>> your advice on anything I have that you might think of interest. I
>> > have
>> >> >>> a remaining stock of the first BJHB Lp recording as listed on Ebay
>> > that
>> >> >>> I'll send you for $15.00 ppd. in the US. Original shrink wrap with
>> >> >>> extensive notes of trad jazz revival in New England, through the
> 50's
>> >> >>> and 60's.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> With fond regards and thanks for all the dear friendships -- faded
> or
>> >> >>> not -- and warm regards, always,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Stan McDonald
>> >> >>> Leader, Blue Horizon Jazz Band
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> To unsubscribe or change your e-mail preferences for the Dixieland
>> > Jazz
>> >> >>> Mailing list, or to find the online archives, please visit:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Dixielandjazz mailing list
>> >> >>> Dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> To unsubscribe or change your e-mail preferences for the Dixieland
>> >> >> Jazz
>> >> >> Mailing list, or to find the online archives, please visit:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Dixielandjazz mailing list
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>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> To unsubscribe or change your e-mail preferences for the Dixieland
>> >> Jazz
>> > Mailing list, or to find the online archives, please visit:
>> >>
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>> >>
>> >>
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>
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