[Dixielandjazz] More on Sopramno Sax

[J. D. Bryce]

They're called "fishhorns" because, in the days when vendors plied the
streets of towns and cities, each vendor had a specific noisemaker to
signify his presence and his wares in the neighborhood. Tool sharpeners had
a clacker.  Coal and ice vendors had a bell.  Ice cream sellers used tiny
bells like the Good Humor truck used to use.  Fish vendors blew on a
straight, conical horn that looked (and sounded) like a soprano sax in the
low register.  Thus....

J. D. Bryce

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Larry Walton Entertainment - St. Louis" <larrys.bands at charter.net>
To: "J. D. Bryce" <brycejo at comcast.net>
Cc: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] More on Sopramno Sax


> One man's junk is another man's treasure --- I think you are right about
the
> Conn's.  A friend has one that sounds pretty good but I have never played
> it.  He has since sold it and bought a Yamaha.  He is a wonderful player
and
> very good players can often get more out of a horn than most people.
> Buescher has a great name with a good reputation.  I have played on a
> Buescher from about that time and I didn't care for it but as I said
before
> you can line up ten horns right off the assembly line and they will have
> slightly different characteristics even today.  Saxes before very recent
> times were not turned out like cookie cutters with CNC machines and modern
> manufacturing techniques.  The instruments had a lot of hand work and
slight
> differences in bore and other things that would make each instrument
unique.
>
> You may have a good one or I may have played on a bad one.  I guess I was
> too sweeping in my characterization but the instrument died out and got a
> very poor reputation because of the rotten playing characteristics of most
> of the instruments made in that time.  They don't call them fish horns for
> nothing.  Couple that with very poor economics of the time and it just
about
> finished the instrument.  I still think the vast majority of sopranos made
> before WWII are poor quality and would take a modern horn even a cheap
> import first.
>
> About 15 years ago I played on a soprano made in the east somewhere that
> belonged to a friend.  He paid about $350 for it at the time and below
high
> A it was really good and above A you could play it in tune but you had to
> work at it.  I don't remember the brand and it was one of the first horns
I
> had seen lacquered Black.
> Larry
> StL
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "J. D. Bryce" <brycejo at comcast.net>
> To: "Larry Walton Entertainment - St. Louis" <larrys.bands at charter.net>
> Cc: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 10:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] More on Sopramno Sax
>
>
> >I would have to disagree that all sopranos before 1950 were junk.  The
> > curved Conns made in the 1920s were superb instruments.  I have a curved
> > 1921 Buescher stencil that has the most extraordinary voice I've ever
> > heard
> > on a soprano.  It plays in tune, but has some idiosyncracies like all
> > saxes;
> > especially sopranos.
> >
> > J. D. Bryce
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Larry Walton Entertainment - St. Louis"
<larrys.bands at charter.net>
> > To: "Jack Bryce" <brycejo at comcast.net>
> > Cc: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 7:42 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] More on Sopramno Sax
> >
> >
> >> Yes, I think the other writer meant the C melody sometimes called a C
> > tenor.
> >> As far as I know there were never any C soprano's but I suppose there
> > could
> >> be.
> >>
> >> Most if not all sopranos made before 1950 are pure junk.  Virtually
> >> impossible to play in tune and the tone is pretty bad.  It takes a
killer
> >> sax player to get anything out of them.  I have such a friend who plays
a
> >> very old curved soprano.  It's cute and he is pretty good on it.  The
> > first
> >> one I ever played had two octave keys on it much like an oboe but
> >> operated
> >> with the thumb.  It was awful.  I played on a Selmer soprano about
1960's
> >> vintage and didn't care for it much.
> >>
> >> This experience was duplicated by Sidney Bechet who tried a soprano and
> > got
> >> rid of his first one.  He tried again some time later and overcame a
lot
> > of
> >> the problems some of which were solved by a very large open vibrato.
> >>
> >> Manufacturers have gotten a lot of bugs worked out of them and even the
> > very
> >> cheap ones are sometimes OK.  I own a Winston and I paid about $300 for
> > it.
> >> It's not bad at all and I rather like the sound but the metal is soft
and
> > in
> >> the year I owned it I had it in the shop three times for adjustments.
It
> >> fell over on it's stand one time (ouch) which isn't good for any horn
but
> >> the whole instrument was knocked out of alignment including a warped
> >> body.
> >> The high register A and above was also tentative, intonation wise.
> >>
> >> I play a Yamaha Custom.  Someone said something about a heavy horn.
The
> > YC
> >> is heavy but it plays great and if my reed is in reasonable condition
the
> >> high notes are in tune and speak easily.  I use the curved neck because
> > with
> >> the straight neck the neck strap hits my thumb and I don't care for
that.
> >> There is a little difference in sound between the necks but doesn't
seem
> > to
> >> do anything about intonation.
> >>
> >> The Yangasawa has one feature that is really nice in that the G# is
> >> forced
> >> open when the key is pressed and not allowed to open with a spring.
This
> >> keeps this pad from sticking.  One thing I do is put a silk
handkerchief
> >> corner under my C# key down on the bell.  That keeps it from sticking
> >> shut
> >> and prevents gunk build up on the pad.  If anyone owns one be sure to
> >> pull
> > a
> >> swab through it after you play.  You do not want to start having a
> > sticking
> >> G# pad.  On my Yamaha it's almost impossible to get to with a cleaning
> > cloth
> >> or even stick your finger under it to unstick it.  I highly recommend
the
> >> Yamaha Custom but they are pricey somewhere around $3500 now but they
are
> > a
> >> lot cheaper than the Selmer which is around $6100 now. The Yamaha
> >> standard
> >> models are also good, somewhat lighter and have a little different
sound
> >> that some may like.  Again they are excellent horns too.  They go for
> > about
> >> $1800 to $3200   Personal preference but if I didn't have the bucks for
> > the
> >> YC I would go for the standard model yss-475.  But whatever you buy see
> >> if
> >> you can try it first.  Personally I don't think the Selmer is worth
that
> >> much.  The Winston goes for $800.  The Yangasawa is around $5200.  I
have
> >> not played on one but I hear they are very nice horns.
> >>
> >> The tone of a soprano is always dependent on the horn but the player is
> >> really the most important.  It goes from sounding like a duck in the
low
> >> range to the typical cut your head off, fish horn sound if the player
is
> >> poor.  I haven't had a lot of these issues and one thing that a soprano
> > can
> >> do is project and a clarinet just can't match it especially in the low
> >> range.
> >>
> >> The soprano, should if it's played well, sound very much like an
English
> >> Horn.
> >>
> >> Personally I think the Selmer pro model is vastly overpriced and over
> > rated.
> >> The guy that repairs horns here was showing off his new Selmer and I
> > pulled
> >> out my Winston and played it along side of his Selmer.  Believe it or
not
> >> that $300 Winston sounded better than the Selmer and his playing didn't
> >> improve anything at all.  I don't think he was a happy camper after
that.
> >> I'm not recommending the Winston over the Selmer for many reasons but I
> >> wasn't knocked out with its sound.  Likewise if someone bought a Yamaha
> > the
> >> first thing they should do is throw away the mouthpiece that comes with
> >> it
> >> and buy anything else.  I'm not a big fan of their mouthpieces.
> >>
> >> Since I had nerve damage and had to switch from clarinet to soprano
it's
> >> been interesting.  For a long time I would try to use clarinet
fingerings
> > on
> >> the soprano.
> >>
> >> The soprano is definitely an acquired taste.  It seems like either you
> > love
> >> it or hate it with most falling on the hate it side but I think that's
> >> because there are very few good players on the horn.   IMHO the soprano
> >> is
> >> not for beginners or even the average sax player.  I would only
recommend
> >> anyone play one if and only if their tone and intonation was rock solid
> >> on
> >> one of the other saxes.
> >>
> >> Prospective soprano players should have to apply to a committee to be
> > given
> >> a permit to buy one much like you have to undergo a background check to
> > buy
> >> a hand gun.  The soprano is kind of like a Star Wars Light Saber.  You
> > play
> >> a high note and wave it past an audience and watch their heads fall
off.
> >> Now that's raw power.  The difference between a good player and a bad
one
> > is
> >> the expression on the face of the heads as they tumble to the ground.
> > They
> >> don't call them lawn darts for nothin'.
> >> Larry
> >> StL
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Don Ingle" <dingle at nomadinter.net>
> >> To: "Larry Walton Entertainment - St. Louis" <larrys.bands at charter.net>
> >> Cc: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> >> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 6:35 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] More on Sopramno Sax
> >>
> >>
> >> > Confused here. Do youe mean a C-melody Sax" That would be a concert C
> >> > overtone sax -- Trambauer or Rosy McHargue most noted for it.
> >> > Of do you mean a Conn Bflat soprano sax -- curved or straight fish
> >> > horn?
> > I
> >> > have my father's Bflat Conn curved Soprano Sax, which he recorded
with
> >> > Spike Jones (Pass the Bisquits Mirandy"), and which he got in Chicago
> >> > in
> >> > the mid-'30's from Peter Palmer III, scion of the Palmers of the
Palmer
> >> > House. The young lad had decided to play sax and bought the small
> > soprano
> >> > because he thought it would be easier to learn to play being smaller.
> >> > When he awoke to reality, he basically said screw it and gave it my
dad
> >> > (Red Ingle). I have it, in playing condition and might part with it
> >> > some
> >> > day, but not today. (I also have two of his violins as used and
> >> > recorded
> >> > with the Natural Seven. Mom sold his tenor, baritone, clarinet, and
> >> > bass
> >> > clarinet when he passed.)
> >> > The little soprano has the most shattering god-awful bark this side
of
> >> > a
> >> > Mastiff on steroids.
> >> > Don Ingle
> >> >
> >> > Larry Walton Entertainment - St. Louis wrote:
> >> >>> You will easily find my old Conn C Soprano Sax -- current bid $700.
> >> >> __________________________________________________________
> >> >>
> >> >> It's interesting how much C saxes bring today.  A few years ago they
> > were
> >> >> pretty much worthless but they seem to bring pretty good prices on
> > e-bay
> >> >> in almost any condition.  I completely restored a 1923 Buescher
tenor
> >> >> a
> >> >> few years ago and it cost about $650 and would have been more if
there
> >> >> were any dents.
> >> >>
> >> >> Considering most of these horns haven't seen a repair shop since the
> > 30's
> >> >> and are costing anywhere between $350 and $700+ then spending
another
> >> >> couple of hundred on restoration would seem to not make sense.  One
> > would
> >> >> wonder what people are doing with them?  There aren't that many
> > authentic
> >> >> 20-30's bands around that would require the rather unique sound of
the
> > C
> >> >> to warrant what seems to be the increased interest in the
instrument.
> >> >>
> >> >> At one time transposed sheet music wasn't readily available and the
> > idea
> >> >> was that people could play in their parlors without extra music or
> >> >> transposition.  I think that it was the "different" sound that they
> >> >> had
> >> >> plus the instruments reflected the technology of the day (same for
the
> >> >> soprano) was the reason they didn't retain popularity.  The biggest
> >> >> reason for the C and the soprano to fall by the wayside was the
> >> >> depression.  People including professional musicians just didn't
have
> > the
> >> >> money for them and they became a dead end more or less.  The soprano
> >> >> revived but the  C just didn't.
> >> >>
> >> >> Either there is a revival of the C going on, people are buying them
as
> >> >> collectors items and speculating on them or people think they are
> > buying
> >> >> tenors.  It's hard to believe that people are buying them to play on
> >> >> unless they are playing music of the period and want to sound
> > authentic.
> >> >>
> >> >> Some people call them C tenors and they are advertised that way.
> >> >> There
> >> >> have been some listed just as tenors on E-bay but their fairly long
> >> >> narrow bell makes me believe that they are C's.   If someone bought
a
> >> >> C
> >> >> Melody thinking it was a Tenor might not be happy with his purchase.
> >> >> I
> >> >> don't think this is dishonesty but rather people buying or
inheriting
> >> >> estates and not knowing what they have.   A Conn tenor in playable
> >> >> condition and depending on the year it was made and model, brings
> >> >> somewhere between $500 and $1000 which is in the ballpark.  I could
> >> >> see
> >> >> people being confused but I don't really understand the demand, that
> >> >> apparently is there, for the C.   C's in just about any condition
seem
> > to
> >> >> be bringing around $350.
> >> >>
> >> >> I have owned three of them over the years and not one cost over $35
> >> >> and
> > I
> >> >> never sold one for much more and at least one became a wall hanger.
> > Now
> >> >> I wish I still had them.  Save your Confederate money.  It seems
that
> >> >> eventually everything rises again.
> >> >> Larry
> >> >> St.L
> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stan McDonald"
> >> >> <stanmm at comcast.net>
> >> >> To: "Larry Walton" <larrys.bands at charter.net>
> >> >> Cc: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> >> >> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 12:46 AM
> >> >> Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Stan McDonald -- recordings, artifacts,
> >> >> memorabilia
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>> Dear fans and friends (old or new),
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I have not engaged in DJML until now, but wanted you to know that I
> > have
> >> >>> several of the above sorts of items posted on Ebay. Please check
them
> >> >>> out. I have consignonline doing this for me and they are just
> >> >>> acclimating to dealing with my/our specialty, so you may have to
hunt
> > a
> >> >>> bit for things like the tuxedo I wore in 1975 with Bobby Short and
> >> >>> Claude Hopkins on PBS TV; one of the unique New Black Eagle Jazz
Band
> >> >>> t-shirts that I wore with them on festivals here and in Europe; or
an
> >> >>> original feature article on me in the MIssissippi Rag, Feb. 2003.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> You will easily find my old Conn C Soprano Sax -- current bid $700.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I have of course continued active since my departure from the New
> > Black
> >> >>> Eagle Jazz Band in 1981, when I founded the Blue Horizon Jazz Band.
> > You
> >> >>> might check our name on Ebay for items; the Web under my name, and
> > also
> >> >>> our web site: www.bluehorizonjazzband -- and come and hear us live
> > when
> >> >>> in the Boston area.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> This is my first venture with Ebay, but I have a great deal more
> >> >>> stuff
> >> >>> to put up, depending upon how consignonline works out. I'd
appreciate
> >> >>> your advice on anything I have that you might think of interest. I
> > have
> >> >>> a remaining stock of the first BJHB Lp recording as listed on Ebay
> > that
> >> >>> I'll send you for $15.00 ppd. in the US. Original shrink wrap with
> >> >>> extensive notes of trad jazz revival in New England, through the
50's
> >> >>> and 60's.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> With fond regards and thanks for all the dear friendships -- faded
or
> >> >>> not -- and warm regards, always,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Stan McDonald
> >> >>> Leader, Blue Horizon Jazz Band
> >> >>>
> >> >>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>> To unsubscribe or change your e-mail preferences for the Dixieland
> > Jazz
> >> >>> Mailing list, or to find the online archives, please visit:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Dixielandjazz mailing list
> >> >>> Dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> To unsubscribe or change your e-mail preferences for the Dixieland
> >> >> Jazz
> >> >> Mailing list, or to find the online archives, please visit:
> >> >>
> >> >> http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Dixielandjazz mailing list
> >> >> Dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> To unsubscribe or change your e-mail preferences for the Dixieland Jazz
> > Mailing list, or to find the online archives, please visit:
> >>
> >> http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Dixielandjazz mailing list
> >> Dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> >
> >
>
>