[Dixielandjazz] Trombone Style Change - Kid Ory

[Marek Boym]

Well,
I heard Gillespie and Parker before I heard Mole; anyway, not being a
musician, I did not think of notes (still don't), but rather of the
over-all effect.
Luckily, I heard Mole and Nichols before having read Rex Harris' and
Bryan Rust's "Recorded Jazz: a Critical Guide," and read it before
hearing the ODJB.
Cheers

On 04/06/2008, Ron L <lherault at bu.edu> wrote:
> The first thing that struck me about Mole was that he played too many notes.
> It has taken quite a while for me to appreciate his playing.
>
> Ron L
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dixielandjazz-bounces at ml.islandnet.com
> [mailto:dixielandjazz-bounces at ml.islandnet.com] On Behalf Of Marek Boym
> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:18 AM
> To: lherault at bu.edu
> Cc: Dixieland Jazz Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Trombone Style Change - Kid Ory
>
> Well,
> I wonder.  Was Ory an "ear player?"  Ory was a Creole, and the Creoles
> often had at least some musical education.  According to Samuel
> Charters' "Jazz: New Orleans," Ory learnt to read.  Thus, he was not
> just an ear player, although, having started at an early age, might
> have begun as such.
> And I have not really found Mole to be an unexciting player; on the
> contrary - I love Mole (and Napoleon and Nichols) at leas as much as
> Ory and JT.
> Cheers
>
> On 04/06/2008, Stephen G Barbone <barbonestreet at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > "Stan Brager" <sbrager at socal.rr.com> wrote (polite snip)
> > >
> > > Jenny had nothing to do with the stylistic change of the trombone from
> > that
> > > evident on recordings with Kid Ory. That change had already been adopted
> > by
> > > most modern (late '20s) trombonists when Jenny came on the scene in the
> > > early '30s.
> > >
> >
> > Well said Stan.
> >
> > I think historically, guys like Ory were ear players. Many guys who copied
> > Ory were also ear players. And in the context of "New Orleans" Jazz, Ory
> got
> > tagged as the "definitive" trombone player.
> >
> > However, Miff Mole and others were more classically trained. Their
> > influences were the "legit" trombonists first, and then, as in Mole's
> case,
> > Eddie Edwards. When Mole was learning how to play trombone, in the New
> York
> > area around 1910 or so, the classical trombonists were defining the
> trombone
> > as a solo instrument, not merely a foundation instument. And so some of
> the
> > New Yorkers developed a very different approach to jazz, especially Mole.
> >
> > Sometimes, IMO,  we get too inbred in jazz. We preach listening over and
> > over to our heros like Ory and decide that he speaks the truth while Mole
> > and Teagarden were heretics. But Mole was on the jazz scene by 1918, and
> has
> > as much right to being a "definitive" jazz trombonist as Ory does.
> >
> > IMO it is not enough to listen to the original jazz players. To be
> complete,
> > one should listen to the people they listened to. To get into their minds
> as
> > to why they did what they did. In Armstrong's case, listening to conetist
> > Herbert  Clarke, will give us some insight about one of Armstrong's roots.
> > (Especially the West End Blues Cadenza) Or in Bechet's case, listing to
> > Enrico Caruso (ah that vibrato) and in Mole's case listening to Herbert
> > Clarke's brother, a trombonist and teacher in NYC and also a member of
> > Sousa's Band in 1915-16. Other famed New Yorkers who were changing the way
> > trombone was played prior to 1920 were Arthur Prior, Gardell Simons and
> > Charlie Randall, one of Mole's early teachers..
> >
> > They above mentioned "legit" musicians had tremendous influence on the
> > jazzers and to this day, many jazz musicians listen to classical music
> > and/or virtuoso players and derive inspiration from it.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Steve Barbone
> >
> > www.barbonestreet.com
> > www.myspace.com/barbonestreetjazzband
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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