[Dixielandjazz] Pointless Definitions

[Stan Brager]

Ken;

Like so many definitions discussed in this list and others as well, are
truly whatever you want them to be. Classic Jazz can certainly encompass a
great many styles of jazz, it can encompass a period of time, and it can be
limited to a single style and time period.

To paraphrase the Queen in "Alice in Wonderland", classic jazz can be
whatever you want it to be.

Stan
Stan Brager

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Mathieson [mailto:ken at kenmath.free-online.co.uk] 
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 5:27 PM
To: Stan Brager; 'Dixieland Jazz Mailing List'
Cc: 'Dixieland Jazz Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Pointless Definitions

Hi Stan & Gang,

I've got an old Musical Dictionary which defines orchestra as "a company of 
instrumentalists in a concert-room or theatre," so not much more help there.

When I was being persuaded to set up my Classic Jazz Orchestra, I agonised 
about what is meant by "Classic Jazz" as well as "orchestra." The persuader 
was a local jazz promoter looking for a gullible musician to take on the 
huge task of finding suitable musicians, writing charts, writing publicity 
material and chasing work (the promoterr hasn't been too helpful with the 
latter).

He had in mind some kind of repertory band faithfully copying old records of

an undefined period and style, but, as my musical interests spread much 
wider than early jazz, I concluded that everything that had happened before 
1970 is now an endangered species worthy of protection. I had in mind a 
bunch of stylistically versatile guys who could read and solo well and, as 
the arranger, I looked for carte blanche to filter older styles through a 
more modern sensibility and vice versa. This might explain why the promoter 
hasn't been too helpful with providing work, but it has succeeded in 
breaking down some barriers that are frequently imposed between early and 
more modern styles of jazz. I find that most dyed-in-the-wool traddy types 
enjoy a Gil-Evans-inspired arrangement of Jelly's "Jungle Blues" when it's 
explained to them that Jelly had written the piece consisting of a single 
chord, a concept inviting modal improvisation, long before Miles Davis began

experimenting with modes and, especially when it's explained to them how 
Jelly's music was constantly developing as styles changed. My guess is that,

had he lived long enough, he would have tried to get to grips with bop and, 
whatever the results of that, would have claimed to have invented it!

Perhaps the most gratifying aspect of building my band has been the 
enthusiasm with which young musicians coming into the band have embraced the

music of Jelly, Bix, Louis Oliver etc and have realised that it takes 
quality musicianship to play this music well. These are guys with good 
academic training who are at home with fiercely contemporary jazz, but who 
get a hell of a kick out of tackling a challenging repertoire stretching way

back, and really appreciate the opportunity to play a variety of styles from

the time of their grandfathers (or earlier) with a rhythm section that can 
bring the music to life.

Now that the issue of "Hot Dance Music" has unleashed so much vitriol, is it

time to ask for a definition of "Classic Jazz?"

Regards,

Ken Mathieson
www.classicjazzorchestra.org.uk



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stan Brager" <sbrager at socal.rr.com>
To: "'Ken Mathieson'" <ken at kenmath.free-online.co.uk>; "'Dixieland Jazz 
Mailing List'" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
Cc: "'Dixieland Jazz Mailing List'" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 9:06 PM
Subject: RE: [Dixielandjazz] Pointless Definitions


> Ken;
>
> Having seen records on which a trio of instrumentalists were described as 
> an
> orchestra, I googled for the definition and found:
>
> Orchestra:
>    In modern times, this is the term which signifies a wide variety of
> instrumental ensembles.
>
> This was taken from http://tinyurl.com/64zrgr which says that this
> definition comes from the "The New Grove Dictionary of Music and 
> Musicians"
> published in 1980.
>
> Need we say more?
>
> Stan
> Stan Brager
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Mathieson [mailto:ken at kenmath.free-online.co.uk]
> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 2:54 PM
> To: Dixieland Jazz Mailing List
> Cc: Dixieland Jazz Mailing List
> Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Pointless Definitions
>
> Hi All,
>
> The current "Hot Dance Music" bun-fight kind of underlines the 
> pointlessness
> of definitions. Was it Duke or Louis who offered this as a definition of
> Jazz? "It's just another way of playing music." On the face of it not a 
> very
> helpful definition, but in retrospect as good as any. Also, how is
> "orchestra" defined? I was taken to task for calling my band the Classic
> Jazz Orchestra when there are only eight of us, on the basis that bookers
> and the public would expect no less than seventeen, and maybe more, 
> players.
> The only definition of orchestra that makes sense to me "is a group of
> musicians who play from orchestrations," but if the solos are improvised,
> what should it be called? Oh sh*t, does that mean I've got a Hot Dance 
> Band?
>
> Regards,
> Ken Mathieson
>
> www.classicjazzorchestra.org.uk
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
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> 05:26
>
>