[Dixielandjazz] Message to Chris Tyle

[jazzchops at isp.com]

Steve Barbone wrote...

(snip)

>My oh my Chris, you are a frustrated old man aren't you?

I don't think either, Steve. As you pointed out, you're two decades older
than me. Because I don't choose to watch Brittany and Carmen, that makes
me a "frustrated old man?" I don't get it

>When you can't discuss facts and logically support your wrong headed
>opinions, you get personal.  What's new? That is how all small men in
>this world act.

Wrong-headed opinions? Huh?? Getting personal??? I wrote a tongue-in-cheek
post intended to be humorous. You're the one that got personal in what you
wrote above.

>Here is a recap and rebuttal of your diatribe.

According to Webster's New Dictionary, a diatribe is a denuciation. That's
not what I wrote as you have quoted it here:

>You stated that Hot Dance was coined to describe is big band (over 10
>piece) music, with hot solos. And was not Dixieland.  That conclusion
>is simply not factual and you supplied no sources other than your own
>unverifiable "research".

What??? Unverifiable research? In my original post, I posted several band
websites that used the term "hot dance music." In your post you supplied
one, the Devil Mountain band. You want more, OK, here goes:

West End Jazz Band http://www.westendjazzband.com/
"The repertoire of West End consists of a broad representation of the
music of this golden age, hot and sweet dance and jazz."

The Internation Society of Twenties Orchestras
http://www.jabw.demon.co.uk/istolist.htm
"An exchange of ideas and information between leaders or managers of
1920's/30's - style orchestras. The groups can be hot or sweet, large or
small, any instrumentation, and use authentic or original material."

>From banjoist and author Dave Frey website
http://www.banjobook.com/aboutauthors_plectrum-banjo-instruction.html
"Dave is also the banjoist for the San Francisco Starlight Orchestra (a
1920's style hot dance orchestra that recently ranked fifth in the world
in a Mississippi Rag newspaper's readers poll,"

>From the Jazz By Mail website
http://www.jazzbymail.com/ViewAlbum.aspx?iAID=1091&iPID=1181&sAN=Rhythm%20Club%20Orchestra&sLCD=1327&sPC=1091_1181
A review of a CD by the Rhythm Club Orchestra on Stomp Off:
Jersey  Jazz,  September 2001, Dick Neeld:

"Almost single-handedly,  Stomp Off Records sees to it that followers of
the hot dance  orchestra sound of the late 1920's and early 1930's are
made available in newly played version of the original  recordings."

Deco Rhythm Orchestra  http://www.decorhythm.co.uk/default.asp?contentID=606
"Our 1920's repertoire requires a band of 10 players. The music is
basically early jazz in orchestrated form and with traditional jazz styled
solos. It's what used to be known as a "HOT DANCE ORCHESTRA" We feature
the music of King Oliver, Louis Armstrong, Jelly Roll Morton, Fats Waller,
Duke Ellington, Hoagy Carmichael, and the Gershwins."

(I really like that one.)

Not one of these descriptions used the term dixieland together with hot
dance. Gee, I wonder why...

>I supply another person's opinion and you immediately put HIM down
>rather than discussing that opinion. That speaks volumes about who you
?are/aren't.

It's OK for another person to have an opinion, but not me? If I put
another person down, that's my opinion. Speaks volumes about you that
others are wrong if they express an opinion.

>Now here are some facts and opinions by others. See if you can put
>these sources down.

1)  What is Hot Dance? Here's what Dick Sudhalter said in Lost Chords
about it:

>"early jazz writers - as writers will - invented categories. 'Big Band
>Jazz' usually referred to the output of black bands, playing
>speciality hot instrumentals for the recording studio microphones.
>Their white counterparts, with very few exceptions, were identified as
>'hot dance' units." . . .

(Steve, it wouold be nice if you going to quote from a book to put in the
page number so that myself and others can look it up.)

I have a lot of respect for Dick Sudhalter and his writing. But the term
"big band jazz" has been used for years by loads of people, not only for
black bands but for white ones, too. For example, take a look at
amazon.com and some of the book titles:

Uncrowned King of Swing: Fletcher Henderson and Big Band Jazz by Jeffrey
Magee
Big Band Jazz by Albert McCarthy
Swingin' the Dream: Big Band Jazz and the Rebirth of American Culture by
Lewis A. Erenberg
Swing Changes: Big-Band Jazz in New Deal America by David W. Stowe
BIG BAND JAZZ FROM THE BEGINNINGS TO THE FIFTIES by Gunther Schuller and
Martin Williams

I guess we infer that all of these people are wrong in the usage of the term.

>"Roughly expressed, a characteristic 'hot dance' performance went like
>this: first an ensemble chorus (and often verse) setting out the
>melody, played more or less straight, scored as well as an arranger
>could manage. Then a vocal, lyric and melody clearly defined, usually
>by a contract singer whose trademark was clarity. . . ."

>"The rest of the record usually belonged to the band-as long as things
>didn't get out of hand. . . "

>It appears from this that Big Band Jazz was Black and Hot Dance was
>White, but the music was the same. Could a Hot Dance Band, simply be a
>White Jazz Band?

Sorry but no. There's definitely a difference between Jean Goldkette's
band playing "Hush a Bye" and "My Pretty Girl." One is a jazz performance,
the other is straight rendering of a stock arrangement of a pop tune. I
would bet in the parlance of the twenties, one would be hot and one would
be sweet.

>) What kind of music did Oliver's Band play? Once again, source "Lost
>Chords":

>Isham Jones told his band to see Oliver. (circa 1922) "The whole Jones
>band would go over there to listen", Jim Breyerly, longtime Jones
>manager, told James T. Maher, "because the old man (Jones) believed
>that Joe Oliver had one of the best dance orchestras in Chicago."

>So you can call Oliver's musical output what ever the hell you like,
>but his Isham Jones called it dance music.

I'm not sure what the point here is. Alright, both bands played for
dancing. But is King Oliver's version of Aunt Hagar's Blues the same as
Isham Jones? I mean, it was King Oliver's JAZZ band. Obviously there's
something to differentiate the two. I mean I hear a difference, do you??

>3) Does Hot Dance have to have solos? Or large Bands as you
>categorically misstate?

>Apparently not. See the 1928 Warner Brothers Vitaphone "Hot Dance
>Band" at:

>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHYHAh88MbY

>Small Band, no solos yet described as Hot Dance.

According to the title of the film, it is "Hazel Gree and Company."
Someone else is calling it a hot dance band. I don't find it relevent to
the discussion here (my opinion).

>4) Hot Dance Band Size: Check out the Devil Mountain Jazz Band website
>for a description of what their 8 piece jazz band plays. To save you
>the trouble of looking it up, it says;" The eight piece concert/
>festival band is best known for the two trumpet sounds of the Joe
>Oliver and Lu Watters bands and the orchestrated "hot dance" music of
>the late twenties."

>I guess, since they are a small band, you should put them down for
>that statement?

Well, after reading that I know EXACTLY what they mean. And, no I wouldn't
put them down at all. They seem to be using the term as I do, only they're
only using eight pieces. Key word, "orchestated," as opposed to an
improvised dixieland performance. (They didn't use dixieland, however.)

You seem to be really hung up on the fact that I used 10 as the number of
players in a hot dance band. I'd still consider Paul Whiteman to be a hot
dance band/orchestra, and he had more. Some had less. Whatever... I
wouldn't call the New Orleans Rhythm Kings a "hot dance band." To me, they
were a jazz band (and I think they considered themselves that, too.)

>And I note that while you have trouble calling Fletcher Henderson's
>pre Louis Armstrong band a jazz band, Sudhalter and a whole bunch of
>other literati and fans call it exactly that. Put them all down, me
>included.

Big deal. The band swung more after Louis joined and Don Redman began
writing more jazz into the arrangements. Again, my opinion. Some people
might call it ragtime; I wouldn't.

>My conclusions are these. (1) You can't successfully discuss the
>merits of your case, so you violently and childishly seek to denigrate
>those who disagree with you. I thought you were man enough to overcome
>that but I guess I was wrong. and (2) terms like "Hot dance" certainly
>becomes meaningless as people define the term differently. And
>obviously as above, no one seems to have come up with a cogent
>definition of the term. Not you, not Tex, not Sudhalter, Not Brittany
>Spears, Not the local stripper etc., etc., ad nauseum.

Well, your opinion again. Obviously the term has meaning to some people,
me and a lot of people I know and/or work with. I don't think my manhood
has anything to do with it. What a strange thing to write...

>That you didn't get a laugh out of the Spears and Electra videos of
>hot dancing doesn't surprise me. You just got too old, too quick.

I didn't get a laugh out of them because I wasn't interested in watching.
If that floats your boat, whatever, dude.

Sincerely,
Chris Tyle



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