[Dixielandjazz] A message for Chris Tyle
Stephen G Barbone
barbonestreet at earthlink.net
Sat Jul 5 21:42:12 PDT 2008
My oh my Chris, you are a frustrated old man aren't you?
When you can't discuss facts and logically support your wrong headed
opinions, you get personal. What's new? That is how all small men in
this world act. Here is a recap and rebuttal of your diatribe.
You stated that Hot Dance was coined to describe is big band (over 10
piece) music, with hot solos. And was not Dixieland. That conclusion
is simply not factual and you supplied no sources other than your own
I supply another person's opinion and you immediately put HIM down
rather than discussing that opinion. That speaks volumes about who you
Now here are some facts and opinions by others. See if you can put
these sources down.
1) What is Hot Dance? Here's what Dick Sudhalter said in Lost Chords
"early jazz writers - as writers will - invented categories. 'Big Band
Jazz' usually referred to the output of black bands, playing
speciality hot instrumentals for the recording studio microphones.
Their white counterparts, with very few exceptions, were identified as
'hot dance' units." . . .
"Roughly expressed, a characteristic 'hot dance' performance went like
this: first an ensemble chorus (and often verse) setting out the
melody, played more or less straight, scored as well as an arranger
could manage. Then a vocal, lyric and melody clearly defined, usually
by a contract singer whose trademark was clarity. . . ."
"The rest of the record usually belonged to the band-as long as things
didn't get out of hand. . . "
It appears from this that Big Band Jazz was Black and Hot Dance was
White, but the music was the same. Could a Hot Dance Band, simply be a
White Jazz Band?
2) What kind of music did Oliver's Band play? Once again, source "Lost
Isham Jones told his band to see Oliver. (circa 1922) "The whole Jones
band would go over there to listen", Jim Breyerly, longtime Jones
manager, told James T. Maher, "because the old man (Jones) believed
that Joe Oliver had one of the best dance orchestras in Chicago."
So you can call Oliver's musical output what ever the hell you like,
but his Isham Jones called it dance music.
3) Does Hot Dance have to have solos? Or large Bands as you
Apparently not. See the 1928 Warner Brothers Vitaphone "Hot Dance
Small Band, no solos yet described as Hot Dance.
4) Hot Dance Band Size: Check out the Devil Mountain Jazz Band website
for a description of what their 8 piece jazz band plays. To save you
the trouble of looking it up, it says;" The eight piece concert/
festival band is best known for the two trumpet sounds of the Joe
Oliver and Lu Watters bands and the orchestrated "hot dance" music of
the late twenties."
I guess, since they are a small band, you should put them down for
And I note that while you have trouble calling Fletcher Henderson's
pre Louis Armstrong band a jazz band, Sudhalter and a whole bunch of
other literati and fans call it exactly that. Put them all down, me
My conclusions are these. (1) You can't successfully discuss the
merits of your case, so you violently and childishly seek to denigrate
those who disagree with you. I thought you were man enough to overcome
that but I guess I was wrong. and (2) terms like "Hot dance" certainly
becomes meaningless as people define the term differently. And
obviously as above, no one seems to have come up with a cogent
definition of the term. Not you, not Tex, not Sudhalter, Not Brittany
Spears, Not the local stripper etc., etc., ad nauseum.
That you didn't get a laugh out of the Spears and Electra videos of
hot dancing doesn't surprise me. You just got too old, too quick.
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