[Dixielandjazz] credibility?

Thu Feb 14 12:43:37 PST 2008

Jim Kash wrote in part:

  > could give the listeners (in this case, others on DJML) the impression 
that
>> the speaker is somewhat larger in life

Larry Walton answered:

> _______________________________________________________________
> It is true what you say but I think there should be a difference between 
> what we say to the general public and what we say to each other.
(snip)

Larry, what you say below is true.  But I believe that Jim was speaking only 
of us on DJML.  There are a lot of non-musicians and amateur musicians on 
DJML who are reading the posts.  Us musicians know...  But many of the 
non-musicians don't realize that often when a name is dropped, it only means 
that someone sat in with a name musician and didn't actually play gigs with 
him, or was not actually hired by him.

Best,

--bob Ringwald

>
> If I am talking to another musician it is IMO in poor taste to start 
> trotting out my resume.  I played under a conductor that invariably would 
> go into who he played with at some point in the rehearsal.  Who the hell 
> cares!!!  It's what you can do this minute that is more important to me 
> than who you played with 30 years ago.  It's also really important for a 
> musician to keep his mouth shut sometimes.  I was on a gig with mostly AF 
> musicians and these guys are tops in their field.  A young bass player 
> came on the job and started trotting out who he played with and how good 
> he was.  You could just see the hair raising on these guys and the looks 
> they were exchanging. BTW his resume was a whole lot better than his 
> playing.
>
> On the other hand your resume is worth dollars and cents when it comes to 
> advertising and the general public.  Personally I use everything I have to 
> sell myself.  While I may not have the same, or as good as, or as many as 
> someone else I play what I do have to the hilt.  Does it work?  You bet it 
> does.  It translates into making more money per gig and more gigs.  I can 
> site exact instances.
>
> So far as the time limit, one gig vs. longer engagements before you can 
> name drop, is again, IMO not too important.  If the guy is good enough to 
> sit in the Kenton Band then he's probably pretty good weather it's one 
> night or for months.
>
> Personally I don't count one niters or use them in my advertising but I do 
> use names if I am called back to play with a band on more or less a 
> regular basis.   A case in point.  I have played with The Russ David Band. 
> Russ is a local celebrity that died a couple of years ago.  I was not a 
> regular on his band but was on the sub list and played occasionally 
> including his memorial band.  I do not use his name in any advertising BUT 
> if a customer or someone brings up his name I will tell them I have played 
> with him if it's relevant.   I also don't use names that are 30 years out 
> of date either.
>
> I think even one niters count, maybe not as much as a founding father of a 
> name band but it still counts.  For these reasons.  You had to be 
> recommended by someone that thought you could handle it.  Your abilities 
> came to the band leaders notice in some other way.  If you were asked back 
> someone thought you did OK.
>
> One niters IMO are not to infer in any way that you didn't make the cut 
> although that could be the case.  There are dozens of very good reasons 
> why someone would not play a second time.  Modern touring bands often fill 
> out with local talent because unlike the old days band leaders just can't 
> afford to carry 18 or 20 guys on the payroll.  I have played with a dozen 
> or so of these groups but I personally don't count them or use them unless 
> a band leader calls me and asks who I have played with.
>
> I think some musicians get the two mixed up and get it backward.  They 
> brag to the choir but think that it's immodest or don't know how to 
> advertise their credentials to the public.  This is a failure to 
> understand that music is a business and that advertising has an important 
> place in it.  Some don't want to deal with that because they are non 
> professional or hobbyists and that's OK.
>
> If you are a professional or semi Pro and you are involved in advertising 
> to sell yourself it's better to separate your advertising from what you 
> say to other musicians if you can.  There's a simple reason and that is it 
> does you no good and it may even hurt you.  If you are good and you have 
> played with famous people, believe me when I say that word will get around 
> without you saying anything.  Two good friends of mine played on the 
> Kenton band. Neither of them ever said a word to me about it.  Their 
> musicianship speaks for its self but their fame spreads before them like 
> an invisible field from musician to musician.  They don't have to say a 
> word.
> Larry
> St. Louis
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jim Kashishian" <jim at kashprod.com>
> To: "Larry Walton" <larrys.bands at charter.net>
> Cc: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 2:45 AM
> Subject: [Dixielandjazz] credibility?
>
>
>> We see quite a lot of name dropping in posts on DJML, sort of along the
>> lines of "I played with so & so", etc.  A casual sit in with some big 
>> name
>> when one was a kid doesn't really constitute "working" with someone, and
>> could give the listeners (in this case, others on DJML) the impression 
>> that
>> the speaker is somewhat larger in life than he/she really is.  Some 
>> people
>> thrive on that.
>>
>> The most honest way to mention someone's name you have worked alongside 
>> of
>> would be to say so, and if it was a one song sit in, say so, also. 
>> Leaving
>> that vital bit of information up in the air gives credibility where it 
>> may
>> not be deserved!
>>
>> Jim
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