[Dixielandjazz] Playing for free

[Judy Eames]

Steve said,

>Funny you should ask. Last week I played 2 gigs that would cover a 
>vacation cruise for my wife and me should I choose to take one.

I can only estimate as I don't know flight prices but if what Steve says is 
accurate each of his gigs must have paid him personally somewhere near 
$2000................... wow!!

Jude



Judy Eames
Kaminsky Connection
Aston, Oxfordshire
UK
www.judyeames.co.uk
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen G Barbone" <barbonestreet at earthlink.net>
To: <jude at judyeames.co.uk>
Cc: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 10:07 PM
Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Playing for free


>> "Robert S. Ringwald" <robert at ringwald.com> wrote
>>
>> Steve, I have received a great deal of e-mail from the REAL pros 
>> thanking me
>> for writing the e-mail to the baseball exec.  I'm not sure why you  use 
>> the
>> word "we" but most "good, professional" musicians do not work for  free 
>> and
>> appreciate what I wrote to the gentleman.  According to the response  I 
>> have
>> received, you are very much in the minority on this one.
>
> That's not the point. The point was that "we" musicians in large  measure, 
> have created the situation of others asking us to play free.  Not the pros 
> generally but others. Want to make a real difference?  Write to those 
> bands that play free.
>
>> Steve, I can't speak for any other Jazz Society.  However, the only  one 
>> I
>> play for, for free is the Sacramento Traditional Jazz Society, and  only 
>> for
>> their monthly concerts.  I personally do this as a pay back for all  the 
>> STJS
>> has done for Jazz, including the annual Sacramento Jazz Jubilee, the 
>> annual
>> Jazz in the Park concerts, the annual Library concert series and other
>> events which STJS sponsors and for which we get paid.
>
> I don't doubt you, the comment was directed at those jazz societies  that 
> do ask and or have bands that play free for "exposure". If STJS  has never 
> done that, hooray. Others have and still do.
>
>> Plus, the youth music programs that STJS sponsors: The annual STJS  Youth
>> Camp, scholarship awards for music lessons, the TNT (The New
>> Traditionalists) youth band which STJS sponsors and the Traditional  Jazz
>> Youth Jazz Festival, 3rd annual coming up this month.
>>
>> To me, lending my time and talent to STJS is akin to belonging to  the 
>> Lions,
>> Elks, or any number of organizations who work for and sponsor various
>> charities, hospitals, etc.
>>
>> This is the only organization that I play for free for and it is  only 
>> the
>> once a month Jazz concerts.  This is my personal decision, just the  same 
>> as
>> your decision on which charity and how, to support.
>
> No argument there, but it's off point. Personally, I pay the band  members 
> out of my own pocket so that they do not play free when I   donate the 
> band for a freebie
>
>>> I applaud the marketing exec  for asking. That's his job.
>
>> And as a a professional musician it is my prerogative to to point  out to 
>> him the absurdity of his request.
>>
>> When Sacramento had a triple A ball team, I often played for the  games.
>> We always got paid.
>>
>> When I lived in Los Angeles, we played for the Raiders and always  got 
>> paid.
>
> I agree that you can do anything you want, and never even suggested  that 
> YOU played for free. I just said it is funny that the marketing  exec was 
> taken to task but not those bands that play free. But was his  request 
> "absurd"? I bet you there are several bands around that will  happily play 
> that kind of gig free.
>
>>> I deplore
>>> the comments we direct at him for doing his job. The dialog should be
>>> between the exec and Stumptown.
>>
>> Perhaps you forget that his post was posted on a public forum with  over 
>> 550
>> members, many of whom are professional musicians?  If we don't stand  up 
>> for
>> ourselves, who is going to???
>
> It was directed at Stumptown and/or bands that might play free.   Rather 
> than raising hell with the marketing exec, you might have  raised hell 
> with bands that play for free.
>
>>> On the other hand, I have nothing but contempt for bands that play  for
>>> free. If they didn't do it, we wouldn't have folks asking for
>>> freebies. And along that line of reasoning, I deplore the bands that
>>> play on OKOM cruises for room and partial board. Of course, alcohol  is
>>> not included, nor are the mandatory tips to the crew ($100 per  person)
>>> and so you are paying to play. That cruise operator whose butt you
>>> kiss, profits mightily from your stupidity. And now there are cruises
>>> where musicians pay full price, just to get a chance to play.  (imagine
>>> 40 banjos on the most recent one)That's even worse. Who among us will
>>> write to the cruise operator and raise hell?
>>> Or to our friendly musicians who facilitate this stupidity?
>>>
>>
>> Steve, I'll be doing a cruise to Alaska with Bob Schulz's Frisco  Jazz 
>> Band,
>> along with fellow listmate Scott Anthony,  in July.  We are not
>> paying partial board.  Our airfare and complete ticket is paid for  plus 
>> that
>> of our wives or companions.  It is a bartering situation.  As far as  I 
>> am
>> concerned, there is nothing wrong with bartering for your music, or 
>> whatever
>> as long as both parties are satisfied and both parties get what they 
>> want.
>
> Ha ha, that is exactly what the marketing exec did. He was attempting  to 
> barter exposure and game tickets for the bands services. Under your  logic 
> above that is now OK? You might not agree to the exec's  bartering 
> arrangement but others might and it is they who we should  convince of the 
> error of their ways, rather than one guy in a minor  league baseball town. 
> Getting mad at him is all posture and no real  action.
>>
>> As Stubby will attest, and as any other musician who has been hired by
>> cruise lines will attest, working, playing music aboard a ship is  not 
>> the
>> greatest life in the world.  your board is in the bowels of the  ship, 
>> you
>> eat crew food and the cruise line can work you to death.  in port  you 
>> have
>> to wait for all passengers to disembark before you can do so.
>>
>> in our case, because we are not employees  of the cruise line, and 
>> because
>> our ticket and the ticket of our companion is paid for, we get very  nice
>> cabins, we are treated as regular customers, eating steak and  lobster in 
>> the
>> dining room, etc.
>>
>> Thus for doing one or two sets a night of the kind of music we love  to 
>> play,
>> we get a paid vacation for ourselves as well as our companions.  We  get 
>> a
>> full week aboard a luxury ship, visit several ports, get our roundtrip
>> flight for
>> ourselves  and companion paid for, hotel paid for if lay over.  To  me, 
>> we
>> are not giving our talent away, we are bartering for a nice vacation.
>>
>> How many gigs would you have to play in order to get enough money to 
>> have
>> this sort of a vacation for yourself and your wife?  Why not play them
>> aboard a ship and have a fabulous vacation?  You can stay home and  play 
>> your
>> gigs and I will be on a wonderful cruise to
>> Alaska.
>
> Funny you should ask. Last week I played 2 gigs that would cover a 
> vacation cruise for my wife and me should I choose to take one.
>>
>>> Stubby Heist had the right idea. He was contracted for money to play
>>> music. Anything beyond that sucks.
>>
>> The type of music Stubby had to play, his living conditions while 
>> aboard,
>> his playing schedule, of course I would not do that for free.  But  in 
>> our
>> situation, it is completely different.
>>
>> I'll take a one week fabulous vacation under these conditions any day.
>
> Perhaps so, but you are leaving money on the table that goes to the 
> cruise organizer rather than to the musicians, without whom the cruise 
> could not take place. You have undervalued your services.
>
>> Regarding 40 banjo players paying their way, these guys are  obviously 
>> not
>> professionals.  They have every right to take a cruise, bring their 
>> banjos,
>> play together and have a great time.
>
> That's exactly what I said.
>
>> Many groups and organizations get together to enjoy each other's 
>> company.
>> It may be in a coffee shop, a hotel, a bar, a picnic, or even a  cruise.
>> They are paying their way thus they are not under any obligation to  play 
>> or
>> not play.  Who are you to say that they should not pay for their  ticket,
>> bring their banjos and play?
>
> You didn't understand what I said.  I did not say they shouldn't.  Seems 
> to me I said; "If that's what floats your boat, (pun intended)  go for 
> it".
>
>>> P.S. No need to resent the guy who plays the baseball game for  great 
>>> seats,
>>> beer and a hot dog either--it all depends on the team and the game. 
>>> (quoted from another person, not Steve B who answered) Ha  Ha,reminds me 
>>> of that old joke about the guy who goes up to a  beautiful woman.
>
>> I don't know about you but, IMHO- taking a luxury cruise aboard a 
>> beautiful
>> ship to Alaska is not quite the same as getting a beer and a hot dog  at 
>> a
>> ball game.
>>
>> I could work a bunch of gigs and then pay for my wife and I to go on 
>> this
>> cruise -- Or I can go on the cruise and play my gigs aboard the ship.
>> Personally, I prefer the latter.
>
> No, it's not quite the same. That's what I implied with that old joke 
> about sex for $20 or sex for a $1,000,000 and the "What do you think I 
> am?"
>
> When you play for room and board you are playing free and that's the 
> bottom line. No different than playing for room and board and travel  to 
> Europe with Liza MineIli or Madonna. You get a great vacation but  the 
> pros also get paid.  Quite well as one of our trombonists who  tours with 
> Liza will confirm.
>
> I must admit that I did play free for a cruise once, to Europe and  back 
> in the 1950s. It was fun, and I spent the Summer gigging in  Europe. But 
> unlike you, I felt used afterwards. And later in  discussing it with my 
> professional friends in NYC, they also felt that  it was a case of being 
> used because the Cruise Line/Operator could  easily have afforded to pay 
> the band. And he would have paid the band  had we negotiated properly.
>
> Bottom line on the cruise example I cited is that there is plenty of 
> money to pay the bands in addition to room, board and travel to the  ship.
>
> Price is always a tough issue. Not too different from Wilbut DeParis 
> taking the steady gig at Jimmy Ryan's from Conrad Janis circa 1950 or  so 
> because DeParis decided to underprice the gig. Ask Janis how he  felt 
> about that sometime.
>
> Cheers,
> Steve Barbone
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> To unsubscribe or change your e-mail preferences for the Dixieland Jazz 
> Mailing list, or to find the online archives, please visit:
>
> http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz
>
>
>
> Dixielandjazz mailing list
> Dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com