[Dixielandjazz] 12/8 Time

[eupher dude]

Janie, you're thinking too much!

:)

The bottom number in a time signature is the type of note which is the 
tactus--what note gets one beat.  In x/4, it's a quarter note.  in x/8, it's 
the eighth note.  in x/2, half note...in x/1, whole note...in x/16, a 16th 
note.  Yes, all those exist.

So, the bottom number has to be a value of note. (It is theoritically 
possible to have a dotted half note get one beat, too, and I've seen that 
indicated as x/2 1/2.  But that's extremely unusual.)

So, 12/8 time 12 beats in a bar, eighth note gets one beat.  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 
9 10 11 12.
But, due to an orchestral conductor's wimpiness about waving that arm so 
much, it's often considered as a bar of 4, with three subdivisions per beat  
  1(23) 2(23) 3(23) 4(23)
Thus, here's an instance where a dotted quarter gets one beat!
or, think 1 and a 2 and a 3 and a 4 and a  as opposed to a "normal" 1and 2 
and 3and 4and

That's why a lot of marches are written in 6/8--you still get the marching 
feel of 2, but with the triplet feel of 6.  (Sempre Fidelis by Sousa is a 
great example)

To further complicate things, if a march is played really fast, like a 
circus march tempo, it is often easier for the conductor to beat 1 to the 
bar instead of a really fast two.  So, every beat of the conductor is one 
bar.

Another example is Beethoven's 5th Symphony, the first movement, the famous 
"da da da dummm"

It's written in cut time, I believe, aka alla breve.  But, the tempo is 
indicated as Half Note = whatever tempo. (mm90 maybe??) So, it's a lot 
easier to conduct that in 1 instead of a REALLY fast two.  And, to make it 
less tedious, conductors will group the measures together in a pattern of 
3,4,5 or 6.  They'll actually mark it in the score so they know what 
grouping to use.  So, a conductor, Beethoven's 5th, is conducting 4 (down, 
left, right, up) but those are BARS not BEATS.

hmmm...the last time I tried conducting in a bar, I got beat.  badly.  but, 
the bruises are gone now.

I hope this helps!

steve "how long has it been since my freshman theory classes???" hoog

>From: "Janie McCue Lynch" <janie39 at socal.rr.com>
>To: "eupher dude" <eupher61 at hotmail.com>
>CC: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
>Subject: 12/8 Time
>Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 09:39:39 -0700
>
>Hope I'm not boring all by revisiting the "Time" topic....but the 12/8 time
>is puzzling to me when referred to as a waltz beat.  I am still not really
>clear how this is going to work as a waltz. Steve's (Eupher Dude) pie chart
>example is most excellent.....but i still can't fit everything together.
>
>I can break the 12 into "3"beats per measure on top by pulsing 1,2,3,4 
>three
>times....but I can't get the 8 to work!  To maintain any semblance of a
>waltz, I can work in 6 beats on the bottom...(two beats on top to one on
>bottom)...but not 8.  Even with a weird syncopation....just doesn't work 
>for
>me.  Not even for a jazz-type of waltz.
>
>I was thinking back to more classical pieces such as Clair de Lune which 
>has
>a lot of irregular rhythms....and the beats are all intermingled
>appropriately...but it sure isn't a waltz!
>
>What am I missing?  (Contrary to the quote of "If you have to ask you'll
>never know."...I often find that's really a GREAT way to find out!"
>
>Thanks!  :-)
>
>Jane Lynch
>
>Janie
>janie39 at socal.rr.com <mailto:janie39 at socal.rr.com>
>
>Eupher Dude wrote:
>
>
>12/8 is basically a waltz.
>
>12/8 is the same as 4/4 with a triple subdivision, instead of duple.  123
>223 323 423 instead of 12 22 32 42        6/8 is 2/4 with a triple
>
>A pie chart can help.  The whole bar is one pie.  Cut it into 3 pieces, 
>it's
>a waltz.  4 pieces, a foxtrot (or whatever)  Then, subdivide it into duples
>or triples.
>
>steve
>
>
>
>

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