[Dixielandjazz] IAJE - PS Music Teachers

Sun Jan 21 11:21:36 PST 2007

Mart said - And as a long retired music teacher, I feel just the opposite. 
I know any
number of highly proficient professional musicians who couldn't teach kids
to play Come to Jesus (in all whole notes.)  There is very little
correlation between the two skills.
Mart

Tom said > Teachers, except for the ones who have no clue about what the 
Hell they
> are teaching and are simply marking time to get a paycheck.

In everything human we have vast differences.  There is a drummer who also 
plays fair banjo that I would love to have in my band.  He knows Dixie and 
is very proficient as a musician.  There is also a young guy that is a 
trombone player and at one time begged to sit in with us.  He is very good 
and wanted to learn to play Dixie.  The trouble is these guys are in demand 
for so many other things in their full time jobs that they are somewhat 
unreliable.  Which breaks a cardinal rule of pro musicians.  They play with 
hobby bands that don't interfere with their band directing jobs.  One of the 
best all round musicians I know teaches.  He plays several instruments on a 
professional level, can arrange and is a very good conductor.  He also just 
got back from Iraq where he toured with the ANG Band.  What a musician and 
he is a highly thought of band director too.

For those of you who have not been there, being a band director in a big 
High School means giving up your life to it.  Your time isn't your own.  For 
those of you that think that becoming a music teacher Missouri requires a 
Masters Degree to earn a permanent teaching certificate.

These  guys play gigs occasionally but just can't squeeze in another group 
or obligation.

As Mart said some pros haven't a clue as to how to teach.  A case in point. 
There is a young man about 15 or 16 who is an outstanding jazz trumpet 
player.  He has been on TV here.  He takes lessons from one of the better 
players in town.  There is a big problem.  His cheeks puff like Dizzy G.  My 
concern is that he has already ruptured his cheeks and will never get it 
back.  I asked him who his teacher was and when he told me I told him to get 
somebody else.  The kid was wide eyed that I would say that.  After all his 
teacher is a top pro.  It's one thing if you have national fame and only 
have to go out and play a couple of tunes but if you have to play for hours 
like the rest of us he will be in trouble.

This guy has made no attempt at fixing what is almost a fatal problem for a 
trumpet player.  Yes I'm sure that someone on the list will chime in with I 
knew this great player who did it and yes Kenny G plays out of the side of 
his mouth.  Nevertheless that will compromise his playing ability and 
endurance seriously as time goes by.

There is no way I would let a kid play like that but $40 or $50 music 
lessons might cause that teacher to compromise what he should be doing.   I 
told the kid and his father that if he didn't fix the problem he should pack 
the horn and take piano lessons.  That went over about as well as I 
expected.

I also blame the crappy public school (St. Louis City) music teacher that 
let him get away with this in the beginning.  I will make a statement and 
that is the City of St. Louis should close their music departments.  I have 
only met one good teacher employed by them and he quit because they assigned 
him to be a teachers assistant in the math department three hours a day.  I 
gave a mouthpiece to a very talented 15 year old girl last week.  She likes 
to dress Goth and has an attitude but her teacher is an absolute jerk who 
has had her excluded from the music program.  Guess which one I would get 
rid of.  She is playing with the Scottish Rite Youth Wind Ensemble which is 
a tough group.  That group sight reads better than most bands perform.  We 
bent the rules some because the kids have to be enrolled in a music program 
or be studying with a private teacher to be in the SRYWE.

Music teachers and programs are a very mixed bag as is the playing and 
teaching ability of H.S. music teachers.

There is no way that I know of to separate the wheat from the chaff.  If you 
test or do all sorts of paper things it will be just more harassment for the 
good teachers to put up with and in the end won't get rid of the jerks 
either.

I think most H.S. music teachers are trying to do the best for their kids 
but you just can't be everything to everyone.  The teacher puts the paint, 
the brush and some basic techniques into the hands of the kids.  It's up to 
them to paint something that might be regarded as art.
Larry
St. Louis

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <tcashwigg at aol.com>
To: <larrys.bands at charter.net>; <mike at railroadstjazzwest.com>; 
<dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] IAJE - TJEN - Some thoughts.

> Well spoken Larry:
>
> I have the same discussion with my International Students who come to The 
> USA to study English, several who have been English TEACHERS in their 
> country at elementary and high school and college level and they can't 
> speak 50 words of English when they arrive.
>
> They have also studied British English in the classrooms and can't even 
> begin to speak or understand American English and all it's slang elements. 
> I also send many of them home proclaiming that they learned more English 
> at my dinner table than they did in a five to ten week course at UC 
> Berkeley.   At School they only stress grammer and structure, not 
> conversation and pronunciation and or every day use and idioms.
>
> The same can be said of Music teachers,  in most high schools and 
> colleges,  and of course there are exceptions to this situation, but the 
> fact remains that it is and has been a problem for over 40 years which is 
> why Jazz is  perceived to be in the dumpster in the USA.
>
> It'[s nice to hear it come form a Teachers mouth who has been there and 
> seen that,  I was beginning to think I was the one who was nuts, and Mike 
> in Denver was not far behind.    No I don't Hate Music or Jazz Teachers, 
> except for the ones who have no clue about what the Hell they are teaching 
> and are simply marking time to get a paycheck.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Tom,     A drummer who would Read if any of my music teachers had ever 
> tried to teach me how. :))
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: larrys.bands at charter.net
> To: mike at railroadstjazzwest.com; dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> Sent: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 12:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] IAJE - TJEN - Some thoughts.
>
>   Mike said- It would also help if the teacher knew about jazz
> improvisation. My former teachers did not.
>
> This is a universal problem with H.S. music teachers.  When I got into
> college I already had played professionally for several years.  That is I
> was making money and for a high school kid it was a lot.  I found when I 
> got
> to college that what I had been doing and continued to do was not 
> acceptable
> in their eyes and was seen as damaging to my future as a classical 
> musician
> and teacher.
>
> Teachers weren't supposed to hang around in bars and clubs with other low
> life.  Even my father in law sat me down and lectured me about how, as a
> teacher, I had to watch how I acted and who I associated with.  You would
> have thought I was studying for the priesthood or at least to be a
> missionary.
>
> I think this attitude has changed a lot in the past 40 years or so but I
> still think that there is an attitude against jazz in the average college.
> Now they have harnessed the beast.  There is a class or two in jazz that
> might even cover improvisation.  But there is little to no practical
> experience except maybe playing in a stage band.  In this way they can pat
> themselves on the back and print in the brochures that they have a great
> jazz program.  This is not to say that all the programs are bad but we are
> talking primarily about teacher training and I think there is still an
> undercurrent there.
>
> A very good friend of mine appeared on HEC channel in a show on jazz
> primarily discussing the book City of Gabriels about the history of St.
> Louis Jazz.  She is very knowledgeable and has arranged a couple of pretty
> good big band jazz tunes.  She plays with me in the Gary Dammer Big Band 
> and
> is a very competent alto sax player.  Her father was a jazzer and she grew
> up with jazz.  She teaches in a high end private school and runs a great
> music department.
>
> You would think that all this combination would be jazz dynamite.  Not so,
> she is terrified to stand up and play a jazz solo.  What's wrong with this
> picture?
>
> The problem is that High School music teachers don't have time to do all 
> the
> things that you need to do to become a competent jazz player.  If they are 
> a
> competent musician they don't have the time to play and advance themselves
> with after school football, basketball and other activities.
>
> Typically high school band directors are not educated in jazz but in a
> pseudo jazz that says that if you know the structure and you know the 
> scales
> and you know something about progressions you are a jazzer.  In other 
> words
> go buy a book, take a class and you can do it.  That is an auto mechanics
> approach to music.  While there isn't anything wrong with knowing how your
> car works and it's helpful to know how to fix a car but it won't teach you
> how to drive.  You can graduate from college with a degree in music
> education having never had even a single class in jazz or jazz studies or
> played jazz.
>
> The average high school band director can't play a horn to the level of
> being a professional musician.  That's not to say that coming right out of
> college that they can't play but wait 10 or 20 years and see if that isn't
> true.  I work with two great guys who are very good teachers but they 
> can't
> play jazz.  However one does play semi pro percussion and Tympani but the
> other never plays.  I also associate with two other recent graduates who
> play exceptionally well and are of Symphony quality.  They just aren't
> jazzers.  I think the colleges here are doing a good job turning out
> traditional classic musicians of a high quality.
>
> There are exceptions of course,  I believe that Steve Lilly of the St. 
> Louis
> Stompers is a retired history teacher.  Too bad he didn't teach music but 
> on
> the other hand maybe that's a good thing.
>
> I of course deplore the status of jazz at the High School level but it's 
> not
> really the teacher's fault.  It's almost impossible to be more than a 
> hobby
> musician and be a good Band Director too.
>
> Personally I always thought that I had to be a competent player.  Who 
> would
> take typing from a person who couldn't type or driving from a non driver?
> Larry
> St. Louis
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike" <mike at railroadstjazzwest.com>
> To: <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 12:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] IAJE - TJEN - Some thoughts.
>
>
>> Yup.
>>
>> You hit the nail on the head Harry. When I was in High School
>> back in the 80s we read charts twice a week for about an hour at
>> a time. No improv was ever taught. Explanation of the chord
>> changes was to "play the scales".
>>
>> No one ever taught us about listening to recordings and finding
>> out what the pros did. I started buying my own recordings in
>> high school. I bought about one CD a month(minimum) and have
>> continued that practice to this day.
>>
>> As far as arrangements goes, I'd personally like to see much
>> more ear training utilized. Especially at the lower grade
>> levels. It would also help if the teacher knew about jazz
>> improvization. My former teachers did not.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> hsalotti at aol.com wrote:
>>>  I agree with Steve's comments.
>>>
>>>  I would like to comment on some relevant observations. Most public
>>> schools music teachers have a limited background in jazz. If they
> have
>>> any experience it is probably from playing in a big band at some
> point in
>>> their music career. In most high school big bands you might find
> only one
>>> or two members of each section that have the ability to improve and
> play
>>> by ear. (there are many players who can play over chord changes but
> can't
>>> play melodies by ear.) Most players first learned to read and play
>>> concert band music in public school and then were taught by their
> high
>>> school band director how to read the swing rhythms. The shame is
> that
>>> many of these students were taught by rote and not exposed to
> recording
>>> of bands like Basie, Ellington and Goodman. This resulted in
> hundreds of
>>> high school bands where you had over sixteen students in each band
> and
>>> maybe only four students in the group could improvise over a simple
> blues
>>> or rhythm changes. Very few of the improvisers were eve
>> r taught how to play an actual melody. Many band directors started
> playing
>> rock based charts so the students wouldn't have to learn to
> swing.(many of
>> the open solo sections are based on one to two modal scales, not any
> real
>> chord progression.) You can find big band arrangements now that are
>> written quite skillfully for junior high bands where the range and
> ability
>> level of the individual parts are appropriate to the grade level.
> These
>> charts require no improvising or a solo is written out.
>>>
>>>  The problem as it relates to OKOM is that:
>>>  1.Most directors teach jazz from a reading music approach. Trad is
> based
>>> on improvisation and playing by ear.
>>>  2. Directors are expected to include large groups of students in
> their
>>> ensembles. Trad bands contain six or seven players at most.
>>>  3.Directors have a limited amount of rehearsal time for their jazz
>>> program, mostly one day after school or one night a week. It is
> easier
>>> and quicker to teach a group of fifteen students to read an easy
>>> arrangement of Watermelon Man than it is to teach six students The
>>> Original Dixieland One Step by ear. God forbid your trumpet player
> is
>>> sick on the night of the concert.
>>>  4. The priorities of most school boards and parents are marching
> band,
>>> concert band and large amounts of students in the program.
>>>     If your want directors to start introducing trad jazz into their
>>> programs they need:
>>>  1.Arrangements that include more than just one trumpet, clarinet
> and
>>> trombone. An arrangement could be based on the street bands of New
>>> Orleans such as the Dirty Dozen Brass Band. The best setting for
> these
>>> arrangements is for a smaller section of the marching band to play
> them
>>> in the stands at the football games. Riff based arrangements that
> contain
>>> two or three trumpets parts,clarinet,alto,tenor,and bari sax (bari
> could
>>> be used as a bass instrument ie. Adrian Rollini) trombone, tuba and
>>> snare, cymbals and bass drum. Since the music would be used as part
> of
>>> the marching band program, directors could justify using more
> rehearsal
>>> time to teach this style of music. Songs with simple three chord
>>> progressions could be used at first (yes, I mean The Saints Go
> Marching
>>> In) to teach basic improvisation by altering the melody(all
> instruments
>>> should learn to play the melody). A simple riff by alternating horn
>>> sections could supply the background for the soloist. This ensemble
> coul
>> d be brought inside after football session and developed into a great
>> group. Possibly even broken into smaller groups based on ability
> level.
>>>
>>>  If you really want to do something to help this music survive, sit
> down
>>> and write a simple arrangement and GIVE it to the high school band
>>> director in your home town.
>>>  If you give the directors the tools to teach this music we have a
> chance
>>> of preserving this style of jazz into the future and not only for
> our own
>>> lifetime. Harry Salotti
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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