[Dixielandjazz] Cartoon Music

[Steve Barbone]

on 1/17/07 6:59 PM, Stan Brager at sbrager at socal.rr.com wrote:

> Steve;
> 
> You know how I hate to disagree with you. But I only do it when I believe
> that you're wrong... as in this case.

That's fine, disagree all you want. This would be a dull world if we all
agreed with each other. I respect your disagreement.
> 
> You state:
> 
> "... Scott's Music applies to many cartoons whereas the others apply to one
> carton, or a snippet of music to one cartoon."
> 
> I respond:
> 
> Scott wrote did not write with cartoons in mind - many of these snippets
> which were used were written for jazz. It was only Carl Stallings who
> applied these snippets to some of his cartoons. Just as portions(snippets)
> of Beethoven's 9th was used in several movies (Clockwork Orange, Die Hard)
> and other Beethoven works have also been used in many pictures, we don't
> look at the Beethoven's works as "movie music."

But we are not talking about movies, and/or movie music. That part is
totally irrelevant. The fact that Carl Stallings applied Scott's music to
his cartoons seems to indicate that Stallings thought it was cartoon music.
And Stallings, as a cartoon music composer/director, was an acknowledged
genius of cartoon music.

BUT EVEN SO, CONSIDER THIS OPINION (excerpted): "Raymond Scott is BEST KNOWN
(emphasis mine) for the many novelty tunes particularly 'Powerehouse' which
featured two contrasting themes adapted by Carl Stallings for use in Looney
Tunes cartoon soundtracks. . ."  Ken Dryden. All Music Guide.
> 
> If we look harder, we can find many pieces of classical music which have
> been used many times in many movies.

Irrelevant. (But I do agree with you)
> 
> You state:
> 
> "... Opera in its "original" form is not cartoon music."
> 
> I respond:
> 
> That's exactly my point, Scott's music in its "original" form is not cartoon
> music either.

I can agree with that, but Scott's music became cartoon  music as soon as
the master, Carl Stallings adapted it.
> 
> You state:
> 
> "IMO Fantasia was not a cartoon. It was the third in a Disney series of
> Animated full length films. it contained many innovations such as the use of
> stereophonic sound. I would categorize it as an "Animated Musical", not as a
> cartoon. Maybe splitting hairs, but a Fantasia is a "musical work" and a
> great way to introduce kids to classical music. Just as cartoon music was a
> great way to introduce kids to jazz."
> 
> I respond:
> 
> While Fantasia was a full-length film, it was also a cartoon. I thought the
> dancing hippos and Mickey Mouse's antics were truly funny. So did millions
> of Americans. If you want to call it an "animated musical", then it's merely
> a type of cartoon. Using the same criteria you cite, I could also call the
> Stallings cartoons "animated musicals". We'd be splitting hairs if I called
> Fantasia a "musical cartoon."

I disagree. They are differentiated by the industry that produces both.
Cartoons are thought of as "short". Fantasia and/or Snow White were full
length and described as Animated Movies. Disagree all you want but that is
how they were/are described by the film industry and most people. You might
check the written history of Fantasia. That's why I supplied the below
website in the original post. There is a lot more thought in film history,
similar to what's on that site, concerning what Fantasia was, or was not.
BTW, by its definition, "Fantasia" means "musical forms" which is a pretty
good clue as to what its intent was.

http://www.encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Fantasia+(film)
 
> The point is that we have to look at Raymond Scott and his music in light of
> their original form and not how someone took his music and applied it to a
> certain collage we call "cartoons". Therefore, Mozart, Beethoven,
> Tchaikovsky, Scott, etc. must be regarded as composers for the intent and
> form of their original work.

I don't know about that. Why can't we look at it any way we wish? There is a
lot of cartoon music out there, regardless of what the original intent was.
Almost like a genre. And Scott wrote a lot of "novelty" tunes. Most of us
have a pretty good idea of what cartoon music is. Jazzy, not Classical. And
if we saw a cartoon with Scott's music, adapted by Stallings, and didn't
know it was Scott's music, we'd call it cartoon music.  Perhaps the reverse
is also true. If we see a Stalling's cartoon and think the music is great,
we might say it is Scott's even if it wasn't. Either way, though, it is
still cartoon music.
 
> By the way, Steve, I heard Scott's music used in a commercial for Visa the
> other day. Let's not get started on this...

I hear you Stan. After all, the original cartoon music thread was extended
from Portena, to Scott, and now almost to Movies. Amazing how quickly most
threads get away from the original point, which was that IMO Portena played
cartoon music. 

What is Cartoon Music? We should have asked Louis Armstrong. :-) VBG.

Cheers,
Steve Barbone