[Dixielandjazz] Hoagie's Stardust

[Bill Haesler]

> Did Hoagie write the verse to Stardust?   The way I heard it,  the song
> originally had no verse, but Bix Beiderbeck added it for him. So, what can you
> folks out there tell me.  The verse itself is so gorgeous, it sounds like
> something that Bix would write, so I've accepted that story.  Is it something
> that I've taken hook line and sinker?   I have wanted to know for years<.
> 
Dear Bill,
Very long. 
We discussed this one in July last year, under the subject heading
'Verses' then 'Stardust'. Fred Spencer kicked off the 'verses' theme to be
followed by Charlie Hull with: "I read somewhere that Don Redmond
[he meant Redman] composed the verse to Star Dust.  Is that true?"

To which Hal Vickery replied:
"I'm playing the 10/31/27 Gennett recording by Hoagy Carmichael and his Pals
right now.  It starts with the verse.  AFAIK this is the first recording of
the song.  I don't see any way that Redman could have written it. I've
always heard that the verse was inspired by a lick by Bix."
 
Charlie countered with: "I believe it was in James Lincoln Collier's "Louis
Armstrong" that I read about Hoagy and some musicians being at a recording
session and Redmond commenting that the song, allegedly theretofore without
a verse, needed one; and that he commenced to write the one credited to
Carmichael.  I hope that someone will disprove that and Hoagy can get full
credit. Actually I don't care much one way or the other.  I just love to
play it." 

Hal then returned with: "I found an excerpt from the book "Stardust
Melodies" that purports to refute the Redman story on the Random House web
site.  The book is a "biography of twelve of America's most popular songs"
and was written by Will Friedwald. Here are the relevant paragraphs: "It has
also been widely reported (by Alec Wilder, among others) that the verse was
added only later, at about the time Mitchell Parish wrote his famous lyric.
But the verse is there on the 1927 premiere recording by Hoagy and pals.
Just listen: the disc opens with a guitar intro (the instrument was just
beginning to be widely heard in the new age of electrical recordings; banjos
had dominated in the acoustic era) before the trumpet takes the now famous
verse, which can be heard on virtually all the early 'jazz' versions of the
tune. The apocryphal story of the verse being written later on was to work
against Carmichael: for years a rumor persisted that the verse wasn't
written by Carmichael at all but by Don Redman, a composer and arranger who
worked for Carmichael's publisher, Irving Mills. As with the persistent
gossip that Fats Waller actually wrote some of Jimmy McHugh's songs, there's
nothing to back it up. "Although Redman didn't write the verse, that
pioneering jazz orchestrator (also saxophonist, bandleader, and novelty
vocalist) does play an important role in the career of "Star Dust." Redman,
who had spent the earlier part of the twenties as musical director for
Fletcher Henderson's band, was by then the leader of McKinney's Cotton
Pickers. The McKinney's band, based in Detroit, seems to have been the first
to record "Star Dust" after Carmichael, working under the pseudonym of "The
Chocolate Dandies." (This was in October of 1928, nearly a year after
Carmichael had recorded the entire song, verse included.) Carmichael brought
his own chart to Detroit and met with Redman, who, according to Sudhalter,
"filled it out and corrected the voicings," although he left it in
Carmichael's key, D major. "Apart from the evidence of the verse existing on
the original Gennett recording, there's the evidence of one's own ears. A
single hearing of its melody, which is even more meandering and ruminative
than the chorus's, should be enough to convince anyone that the verse is by
the same hand that penned the central chorus melody. The chord changes in
the verse are slightly more conventional than they are in the chorus, as
we'll see, but the melody of the verse is either the work of the same
mind-it uses the same kind of range and intervals-or the mind of a darn
clever forger." Hall finished all this with: "The really relevant portion
seems to be the parenthetical statement in the second paragraph."

I then waded in with: "Dear Charlie, Regarding your comment: I believe it
was in James Lincoln Collier's "Louis Armstrong" that I read about Hoagy and
some musicians being at a recording session and Redmond commenting that the
song, allegedly theretofore without a verse, needed one; and that he
commenced to write the one credited to Carmichael. Thank you for that lead.
James Lincoln Collier does indeed say, in brackets -"It should be noted that
the wonderful verse,which so beautifully reflects the main theme, was not
written by Carmichael, but by Don Redman." (Page 246 Pan Books paperback
edition. 1985.) No mention though of where his information came from. Your
story may point to an early origin, perhaps picked up by Mr Collier."

Then Sheik couldn't resist: "Collier is a *terrible* "historian", and on top
of that, he's dishonest. I wouldn't trust *anything* he says. He makes
oodles of unsupported statements/assertions, and all too often his footnotes
are meaningless--he obviously puts many of 'em in just to say he's got
footnotes. His appearance as a talking head in Burns "Jazz" is another
strike against the series...The only reason I don't throw his Armstrong,
Goodman and Ellington books away is because I paid for them; since I have
better books on all three, methinks I'll do that the next time I put my
hands on that shelf... No, don't ask me for details; those books simply
aren't worth my time..."

I followed on Hal's post with: "Looks like you've nailed it, with the quotes
from Will Friedwald's  "Stardust Melodies". The prior-composition claim I
was trying to recall earlier is included on the Amazon site as part of its
publicity for Richard Sudhalter's book 'Stardust Melody' (2002).   (The
similarity for the book titles is a bit confusing, unfortunately. Both were
published, independently, in April 2002. I do not have either of them yet.)
Here is the Amazon site quote: "  'Who really wrote Star Dust?', August 19,
2002 Hoagy Carmichael's college roommate, Hank Wells, claimed all his life
that Hoagy, consciously or subconsciously, stole Star Dust from him. People
in his home- town of Lake Bluff, Ill., said that this "broke his heart."
Wells visited back and forth with the parents of a friend of mine, and she
personally heard him tell this story. He played piano at her wedding.. I
have read Hoagy's own words about Star Dust quoted in a book and they are
cryptic. He does indeed imply that the song came out of nowhere into his
mind. Two facts: (a) What if a man wrote one great song that was unusual and
never wrote another? Why is that? (b) Why could one man write such a great
song and then never equal or exceed it in his long writing career. Why? Only
one set of facts fits that scenario. Hank Wells, heartbroken, never wrote
again. Hoagy couldn't write anything so good on his own. Ccarf. "
This appears to be the basis of the article I had recalled, but which I have
yet to locate in my files. This afternoon. I have also been looking at other
books, including the following, and find that the 'story' of who was
involved, and when, has become a mess. 1.  'American Popular
Song'. Alec Wilder. 1972. Who mentions a 1929 composition date and claims
that the verse was added when Parish wrote the lyrics. 2.  'You Must
Remember This...' by Mark White. 1983. Rehash of other known information
plus a story involving Harry Hostetter. 3.  'Tin Pan Alley' by David A
Jason. 1988. Mentions that Mills Music published [and presumably
copyrighted] "Stardust" as an instrumental number in Jan 1929. Parish added
the lyrics in May 1929, but it did not become popular until Isham Jones
recorded it, as a 'dreamy ballad', in May 1930. 4.  'Poets of Tin Pan Alley'
by Philip Furia. 1990. Who states that it was composed in 1927 and that
Hoagy's University of Indiana classmate Stu Gorrell named it "Star Dust"
(two words). However he perpetuates the story that Carmichael added the
verse when Irving Mills called Mitchell Parish in to write the words. [Not
true as we know that the verse is contained in the first Carmichael & His
Pals recording on 31 Oct 1927.] Mr Furia claims that it became a hit when
Cab Calloway introduced it at the Cotton Club in 1929. [Calloway's recording
of the song was not made until 12 Oct 1931.] 5.  'Jelly Roll, Bix, and
Hoagy.' by Rick Kennedy. 1994. A long and interesting account of the tune on
pages 129-132, including some quotes from Carmichael's 1965 book 'Sometimes
I Wonder' implying that Hoagy did not really know where the tune came from!
>From the above it can be seen that the 1931 copyright date (initially quoted
by me) and given by 'Kinkle' is obviously in error. Mention has been made of
the Frank Sinatra versions of "Stardust", including a verse-only one (where
did I read that, and is this the one Fred Spencer referred to in the email
which started this long thread?). To save me time, can someone please
provide details of when they were recorded by Sinatra and with which record
company? [I then included the words for the verse and chorus.]

Hal then replied: "Good stuff! The section quoted in the Random House page
addresses Carmichael's story of its composition, and the author concludes
that Carmichael was working on the song as early as 1926 when he was in
Florida trying to establish himself as a lawyer. I tend to discount stories
of people who say songs were stolen from them, particularly songs as complex
as Star Dust.  Carmichael had already published tunes.  Riverboat Shuffle
was recorded as early as 1924 that I know of.  One thing I noticed about the
Hank Wells story is that people say they heard him tell the story, but there
is no one who says that they (or their parents or grandparents or whatever)
actually heard Wells actually play the tune at the piano.  Was there anyone
at Indiana University who heard it?  Why didn't Wells sue Carmichael?  When
did Wells first tell the story?  All kinds of questions come to mind.  And
it's not exactly like Carmichael never wrote a great song after that,
despite the conclusion reached in your quote.  Hoagy wrote Skylark, Georgia
on My Mind, and a number of other songs that may not "meet or exceed" Star
Dust but certainly aren't chopped liver!  He was certainly a prolific
writer.  Check out the site www.hoagy.com , a site his son Hoagy B.
Carmichael put together, which lists in alphabetical order everything that
Carmichael published.  Interestingly enough this gives the copyright date of
"Stardust" as January 5, 1928.  Perhaps the 1929 copyright date was the date
Carmichael assigned the copyright to Mills. As for the question about the
Sinatra "verse only" recording of Stardust (or Star Dust), it appears in the
"Sinatra and Strings" album from 1962 (source:
    http://newsummer.com/mp3.shtml ).
Sinatra was with Reprise by that time. I've heard it, but I don't have the
record."

Don Ingle also contributed with some very informative comments regarding
Bix's influence on Hoagy, but did not comment on the main claim. I can
forward this too, if you are interested.

Well, Bill Sharp. That should keep you quite for a while.
8>) 
Kind regards, 
Bill. 
PS: I did finally track down and listened to the Sinatra verse-only
"Stardust'.