[Dixielandjazz] Guitars and 4/4 beat in New Orleans Jazz

[D and R Hardie]

Hi everybody,
                       As Charles suggests I am persuaded by  specific 
evidence  from rhythm players
- Johnny St Cyr, Pops Foster and Johnny Dodds that the early style was 
two beat i.e.
bass and bass drum beat 1 and 3. Side drum beats all four with stress 
on  2 and 4 as does guitar.
This is the pattern we have adopted in the Buddy Bolden Revival 
Orchestra. List mate John Petters cites Baby Dodds drumming on "Come On 
and Stomp Stomp" with Johnny Dodds Black Bottom Stompers as a classic 
demonstration of two beat drumming. Foster said the bass could beat all 
four beats in last choruses. Baby Dodds said four beat  emerged about 
1920 on the riverboats.
                 Louis Lince  and Bill Haesler rightly point to 'Brock'  
being a nickname, related to facial scarring.. The Bolden Band 
apparently played a tune called "Old Brock Cried when the Old Cow Died" 
   based on an old folk tune called "The Tune The Old Cow Died On". We 
have found a tune for this that as Sydney Bechet said is a bit like 
Muskat Ramble.
Happy New Year
Dan Hardie
http://tinyurl.com/nqaup

On Monday, December 25, 2006, at 09:40  AM, Charles Suhor wrote:

> Pages 259-263 of listmate Dan Hardie's excellent book EXPLORING EARLY
> JAZZ give as well documented and thorough discussion of the 2 beat vs.
> fl;at four question as I've seen, and he comes down lightly on the side
> of earliest jazz being the former. A new article by Jack Stewart in the
> current issue of The Jazz Archivist is interesting but to me, unclear
> on the matter.
>
> Charlie
>
> P.S.-- Though Steve doesn't imply this, the Louis quote about "that
> good old New Orleans 4/4" has sometimes been cited as if his comment
> alone settles the matter. I'm as convinced as most people that Louis
> was the first fully realized jazz musician, but that doesn't mean that
> all of his words and views were accurate.
>
> On Dec 24, 2006, at 4:22 PM, Steve Barbone wrote:
>
>> I think most New Orleans Jazz Bands featured Guitar and String Bass
>> right up
>> until they started recording the music. The early photos seem to
>> confirm
>> that. But, once they started to record, they found that the early
>> devices
>> would not pick up Guitar and Double bass adequately. So they switched
>> to
>> banjo/tuba.
>>
>> I'm not sure when 4/4 became the New Orleans rhythm, but Louis
>> Armstrong in
>> talking about his first gig with King Oliver (in "Satchmo, My Life in
>> New
>> Orleans") describes how much he enjoyed Lil Hardin's piano playing
>> "with
>> that 4 beats to the bar" and notes that she got her training from
>> Oliver and
>> "all the pioneers from New Orleans". And Armstrong, I believe, always
>> described the beat of "New Orleans" jazz as 4 beat. As does Norrie Cox
>> in
>> various publications.
>>
>> Then again, some say that early New Orleans Jazz used some 2 beat for
>> the
>> first chorus's and then switched to 4 beats for the ride out. And some
>> say
>> Dixieland was 2 beat, but N.O. Jazz Rhythm was 4 beat.
>>
>> Perhaps it depends upon which bands we listen to (White vs. Black) for
>> early
>> examples? Perhaps the white bands played mostly 2/4 and the black 
>> bands
>> mostly 4/4?
>>
>> One thing for sure, when Lu Watters and Yerba Buena started the West
>> Coast
>> Revival, they mimicked the Oliver line up, but switched the rhythm
>> section
>> to banjo/tuba and went back to two beat.
>>
>> Plus the "Society" bands of the various Lanin brothers or Meyer Davis
>> et
>> al., virtually all played a 2 beat "Dixieland". Because the debutantes
>> had
>> all learned to dance to a sort of Mickey Mouse two beat during their
>> formative years and "Society" Dixieland was all the rage to them.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Steve Barbone
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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