[Dixielandjazz] Tempos - more...
tcashwigg at aol.com
tcashwigg at aol.com
Sat Oct 22 13:36:07 PDT 2005
Hi Eric: & All:
I did not mean to not post my reply to Eric to the list, I just hit
the wrong reply button trying to avoid sending it twice like my friend
Larry does , I also tried to not include all the text of Eric's post in
my reply, however there seems to be some problem with my system not
letting me cut and past only the selections I want to respond to,
copies the entire post anyway when I hit reply.
Sorry about that, trying to figure out a way around it.
I would say that "FIRE" tends to mean fast and loud to crank on the
dancers and the Party animals, those who wish to hear it slow and at
lower volume can feel free to take the seats in the back of the venue
and the time delay might slow it down a wee bit :)) Just kidding a bit.
As to Turk & Lu's slower style and it's effect on audiences in their
waning years, which by the way,( were many people of my generation's
fire in the belly going out to party and dance and drink and raise Hell
and chase pretty women nights) pretty much a turn off for us at that
point in life except for those younger guys looking for OLDER women. At
that particular time in life we simply found them and their music
BORING. Personally I still find some of it Boring the way they played
it. But that is just my personal opinion about it.
The part about you knew about the folks leaving the city for the
boonies, might have been known by you bbut not by everyone else on the
list but I can see how you may have mistook my statement a bit since I
accidentally only replied to your post offlist.
And you are absolutley corect about some of the West Coast
Practitioners having NO SOUL, they often sound like Classical musicians
trying to play it without any charts in front of them. Too Cut and Dry
and not much sponteneity which translates to us younger folks as
Boring. The French coined a phrase " Those Jazz People Love to be
Bored" many of them do, but perhaps in all fairness it is not boring to
them, "to each his own".
You can here some samples of how my band plays OKOM at my website:
Or maybe Bill Haesler will part with his no doubt "treasured" copies
of two of our CDs since I am sure my style is not Bill's favorite, or I
also think Anton Crouch, and Sam Meerkin and Ross Anderson have copies.
We have also enjoyed substantial radio play down under in the past
eight months or so on several radio shows.
From: Eric Holroyd <eholroyd at optushome.com.au>
To: DJML <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
Sent: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 17:24:31 +1000
Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Tempos - more...
I just got a direct email from Tom Wiggins on the subject I posted to
the list, so am replying direct to the list.
In part, Tom said:
> Turk & Lu did not change with the times and lost their audience of
younger folks in the major San Francisco marketplace where they were
popular. Their older fans and audience moved to the suburbs and
stopped traveling back into the city to hear them and they had no fire
left to satisfy the younger audience that moved into the city to take
the place of those that left.
Does 'fire' mean 'fast and loud'?
> We have the same situation repeating itself today in almost all the
West Coast Jazz festivals, those bands that cater to the loud younger
dancing audiences are getting asked back because the majority of the
ticket buyers are that crowd, always have been.
That's just another way of saying what I said in the first place! Why
say it again?
> You never miss what you have until it is gone. Lu & Turk did not
San Francisco, San Francisco left San Francisco for Sacramento, Lodi,
Paradise, Modesto, Fresno, etc. which all now have small Trad. Jazz
Societies of folks who used to be in San Francisco and Oakland
supporting Lu and Turk and Clancey Hayes etc.
I knew that of course, and have played at most of those places.
And I've always thanked the Volunteers from the stage, for without
them us musicians would have nowhere to play!
> Probably the same thing happened in Australia and the folks who
started > it all in Sydney now
live in Melbourne, Adelaide. etc
Now there's a subject best left to Bill Haesler to expound upon.
> Perhaps Lu and Turk wrote those songs at a slower tempo when they
losing the fire in the belly that they had when they started...
The earliest recording I have of Turk doing 'Ory's Creole Trombone'
with the Watters Band was quite slow, and the airshot I have of the
YBJB playing 'Strutting With Some BBQ' likewise, although I have a
feeling that Lu thought the same way I did, ie the tempo is already
stated in the title - "STRUTTING".
To me, "Strut" is a walking tempo, albeith a little fancy, but it's
definitely NOT the 210 clicks that I heard some West Coast festival
bands play it.
> I personally find much of the Lu and Turk music being interpreted
by the resident musical practitioners to be a bit on the boring side,
Perhaps they don't have any soul to put into the music?
> I am certain they might have exactly the opposite feelings for my
band and > the way we interpret OKOM.
I don't ever recall hearing your band, but I was with Ed Zimbrick's
'Tenth Avenue Jazz Band' for a couple of years and we certainly
interpreted things differentlly - which was Ed's intention all along.
And the band never failed to get standing ovations from the audiences
made up of the widest possible age groups - especially in Australia and
> The festivals need to strive to bring both worlds together for the
economic well being of all events and the continuance of a paid and
expanding audience to keep the genres of music viable and preserved
everyone young and old alike.
Fair enough, but if you're going to label it a 'Jazz' Festival then do
potential attendees in your advertising the courtesy of explaining the
types of jazz they're likely to hear there.
I'd be most put out if I paid good money to attend a Festival
expecting to hear Classic Jazz and Mainstream, but instead got subject
to performances (?) by avant garde people doing their own
And don't worry, I've seen that here in Australia on more than one
In closing, I see that the small point I raised about REPLY fell on
Kind regards, Eric
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