[Dixielandjazz] Greeks / New Orleans / Syncopated Music / Jazz Influence

[Charles Suhor]

John Steve and all--

The rhythmic complexity in the development jazz isn't about unusual 
time signatures (which of course were conventional Western cut time, 
2/4, and 4/4 in early jazz). The rhythmic kicks were in irregular 
accentuation, projection, and shape of the written and improvised 
lines. Pre-jazz ragtime did this markedly and was called vulgar as a 
result. Things got more and more varied as players upped the ante by 
manipulating time in other inventive ways,. e.g.,  laying phrases 
behind the beat, improvising in double time over ballads, moaning with 
bent notes over several bars, etc. African music set the stage for 
these contributions in ways that have been described by Schuller, 
Baraka, and others.

There was concurrent development of jazz along these lines in New 
Orleans by the LaRoccas and Rappollos and others. But cheez, does 
anyone really doubt that the rhythmic and other innovations were in 
fact advanced MAINLY by black musicians? or that Louis brought it all 
together in his Hot 5 and 7 ensemble playing, solos, and vocals?  The 
other ethnic influences were arguably present to some extent in the 
early jazz environments, but the blues elements, the 
reconceptualization of tone on each instrument, and the intense 
rhythmic explorations were mainly the work of black artists.

Charlie Suhor


On Feb 10, 2005, at 8:25 PM, Steve barbone wrote:

> John Pappas <OArkas at aol.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, Folks:  I don't know who invented what, and it's ok with me 
> whatever the
> truth is.  However I almost responded to the comment on rhythmic 
> complexity
> and then decided not to.  But when I saw this reply, I thought, "well,
> that's what I was going to say."   You see, Greek folk music is my 
> "meat and
> potatoes."  I play C clarinet in Albert system, and our music uses 
> 5/5, 7/8,
> 9/8, 7+5/8 (ie 12/8); and more, and all in different patterns:  ie 7/8 
> + 3/8
> + 2/8 + 2/8.  We dance to all these meters as well.  However, we 
> haven't
> even begun to discuss the modal system of our scales.  Yes, the 
> pentatonic
> scale is one of the most ancient and still used.  And all of this is 
> western
> music of the Greeks.  Old or archaic Swedish and Irish music (some 
> surviving
> tunes) also use some of the old modes. What does that have to do with 
> Jazz? 
> Maybe nothing, but certainly our western civilization had lots of 
> complexity
> in both meters and scales, long before jazz came around. I don't want 
> to do
> a big lecture, and I really hope I'm not boring folks [big grin]  but 
> what
> about improvisation.  That's the biggest part of our folk music!!! 
> Embellishment and improvisation.  The big difference is that our solos 
> don't
> follow the chord progression, but instead work within the mode (or 
> scale). I
> think I love OKOM because in some ways it has the same freedom as my 
> Greek
> folk music.  Now, I just have to learn the "rules" and try to play 
> some of
> this OKOM on my Albert clarinets!!!!
>
> ---------------------------
> Hi John & List Mates:
> And some folks scoffed at Greek Music having any influence on New 
> Orleans
> Jazz. But they are WRONG. For Example some interesting items about 
> probable
> connections between Greece, Greek Music, New Orleans & Jazz:
>
> THE ROOTS of the modern Mardi Gras go back to the earliest 
> civilizations.  
>> From the Persians to the ancient Egyptians, Romans and Greeks.
>
> The Hermes Parade during Mardi Gras always has a Greek theme. With 
> beautiful
> human statues of Aphrodite, and other Greek Gods and Goddesses. Some 
> are
> nude and body painted. All are beautiful people.
>
> New Orleans had a Greek immigrant population in the 19th Century.
>
> The oldest Greek Orthodox Church in America is on Robert E., Lee 
> Boulevard
> in New Orleans. Built in the 19th Century.
>
> Every Memorial Day Weekend, this church Trinity Cathedral, is the focal
> point of a 3 day Greek Festival sponsored by the N.O. Hellenic Cultural
> Center.
>
> Some sections of New Orleans abound in homage to the Greeks. In
> architecture, the Garden District has a huge number of Greek Revival
> Mansions and homes. Some of the warehouses in the warehouse district 
> are
> Greek Revival. Built during the 19th Century.
>
> Major Streets in the Garden District were named for the 9 muses of 
> Greek
> Mythology in the mid 19th century. Calliope, Clio, Erato, Thalis, 
> Melpomene,
> Terpsichore, Euterpe, Palymnia and Urania.
>
> And, as any Italian will tell you, Most Italians from Naples on South,
> including Sicily also have Greek blood because of the various wars in 
> that
> part of the world from 1000 BC to 500 AD or so. Part of their heritage 
> is
> Greek. Some of my ancestors from Grandparents back are Greek.
>
> So right on John, all that rhythmic complexity, syncopation and 
> modality
> most likely did have an influence on New Orleans Jazz. Certainly 
> during the
> 19th Century, the city exhibited a fondness for Greek culture. Why 
> wouldn't
> that include Jazz? Either from Greek musicians who were there at the
> beginning, or from those wonderful Italians whose heritage also 
> included
> knowledge of Greek Music.
>
> Cheers,
> Steve Barbone
>
>
>
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