[Dixielandjazz] Re: Dixielandjazz Digest, Vol 26, Issue 15

[Charles Suhor]

Re the who-invented jazz thing:

It's credible to talk about Italian and many other Western influences 
on the development of jazz, esp. folk music influences (as Dan Hardie 
argues in his books). But  without these African contributions, jazz 
wouldn't have sounded like jazz: RHYTHMIC COMPLEXITY (unparalleled in 
Western music), IMPROVISATION (mainly defunct in classical performance 
after Bach, Beethoven), BLUE TONALITY (5-note scale), VOICE-BASED 
INSTRUMENTAL TONE (bent notes, smears, growls, rips, etc., dating to 
early African-American expression in field hollers, work songs, street 
songs, church music, rural blues, etc.) These intensely jazzy elements 
were more slowly and less integrally incorporated into the jazz of the 
early white players (or of the Creoles of Color, who were educated in 
the Euro tradition). To my thinking and listening, there's ample 
internal evidence of this as we listen to recordings  from the ODJB on.

Charlie Suhor

On Feb 9, 2005, at 3:00 PM, Steve barbone wrote:

> "Bill Gunter" <jazzboard at hotmail.com> wrote (polite snips)
>
>> Much has been made of the claim that the Italians invented jazz.  
>> Give me a
>> break.
>
>> True, the Italians are a most musical people. Matter of fact, it was 
>> an
>> Italian monk back in the year 1100 or so who finally identified and
>> formalized the musical notation system and tonic scale that 
>> characterizes
>> ALL of western music!! Guido d'Arezzo was the fellow's name and his
>> contribution to all of our music in the western world is enormous.
>
> Yes, and Italy remained THE center of music in the civilized world for
> centuries thereafter.
>
>> But jazz, on the other hand, is cool, syncopated, bouncy, upbeat, and
>> joyous.
>
> Cool? Not always. Jazz started out as HOT, just like us hot blooded
> Italians. It only became cool when the pseudo intellectuals started to 
> dig
> it. It had to have been invented by a HOT BLOODED group of people who 
> are
> syncopated, (check those hand gestures) bouncy, upbeat and joyous. Hey,
> that's the very definition of Italians, nobody else fits.
>
>> Sure, Italians can play it and even sing it (Prima . . . need I say 
>> more?}!
>> But, they didn't invent it.
>> It had to be a culture with a history of oppression going back 
>> millennia but
>> never losing its capacity for music and humor. The sad songs and 
>> laments of
>> this culture reduce us to tears but the happy music makes us wanna 
>> dance and
>> the humor is so funny that we almost pee in our pants! And, by the 
>> way, the
>> first musical movie ever made (The Jazz Singer) was not about 
>> Italians!
>
> Yes but then, the only folks with a "millennia" history of oppression 
> are
> the Jews so buy that rationale, they must have invented jazz. The first
> "musical" movie was in reality the first "talking" movie designed to
> entertain, not teach musical history of jazz. However, the star was 
> indeed
> Jewish so maybe they did invent jazz.
>
> We should realize, however, that the Italians were indeed an oppressed
> segment of the population in pre World War 1 New Orleans. Every bit as 
> much,
> if not more so, than any other population segment there.
>
> Therefore if "oppression" spawned jazz, then it must have been invented
> first by the Jews, then by the Italians and the Blacks.
>
> Italians are getting short shrift here, even today, by the revisionist
> historians who blissfully ignore all those Italian Jazz Musicians 
> named in
> previous posts all who pre-dated Louis Prima by at least a generation 
> and
> some who pre date Louis Armstrong.
>
> Hmmmmm. Does Richard Sudhalter know about this? Yes, he does. He waxes
> eloquently about those early Italian jazzmen and their contributions in
> "Lost Chords", to the point of suggesting that someone should write a
> historical account of it in book length form.
>
> Cheers, (tongue firmly in cheek)
> Steve Barbone
>
>
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