[Dixielandjazz] 4/4 Rhythm

[Tony Pringle]

My earliest exposure to jazz was hearing The Red Hot Peppers, Hot 5, 
New Orleans Wanderers and Bunk Johnson Victors.

The Hot 5s and N.O. Wanderers sides sound, to me, to be solidly 4/4 - 
I always thought that this allowed Armstrong a lot of the freedom he 
displayed he displayed on these sides. The Mortons sound more 4/4 to 
me rather than 2/4 even when the bass plays 2/4.

My own band tends to play 2/4 and 4/4 and mix them for effect. Not 
sure how this came about, but it works for us.

I have to admit that the Creole Jazz Band always felt like a 4/4 
rhythm and when I first heard the Lu Watters sides I found the rhythm 
to be a bit rigid. I always put it down to the new Orleans guys 
having a looser feel with the rhythm.

Like Brian Towers I also found the driving sound of the Sam Morgan 
band very much to my liking. I have to admit, despite everything I 
have just written, that I never thought of 4/4 as something that came 
along later - I've always tended to either like a sound or style or 
not like it.

Cheers,

Tony Pringle



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>Today's Topics:
>
>    1. 4/4 Rhythm (Stephen Barbone)
>    2. Re: 4/4 Rhythm (Brian Towers)
>    3. Georgia Sunset - Cake-Walk (Bill Haesler)
>    4. Re: Georgia Sunset - Cake-Walk (John Farrell)
>    5. Re: Georgia Sunset - Cake-Walk (John Farrell)
>    6. Georgia Sunset (John Farrell)
>    7. Georgia Sunset (John Farrell)
>    8. Re: Georgia Sunset (Bill Haesler)
>    9.
>        Jackie Paris--obit- toured with Charlie Parker, Charles Mingus, and
>        Lionel Hampton (Norman Vickers)
>   10. Re: Sam Morgan discography (Robert Smith)
>   11. Dirty Dancing (Stephen Barbone)
>   12. Dirty Dancing (John Farrell)
>   13. RE: Dirty Dancing (Ron L'Herault)
>   14. Re: Dirty Dancing - the shag (Stephen Barbone)
>   15. Re: Matthews Band of Lockport (Charles Suhor)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 17:48:48 -0400
>From: Stephen Barbone <barbonestreet at earthlink.net>
>To: dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com, csuhor at zebra.net
>Subject: [Dixielandjazz] 4/4 Rhythm
>Message-ID: <40D6063F.8A24191F at earthlink.net>
>References: <E1Bc7Xz-000Fd2-01 at ml.islandnet.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
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>Message: 1
>
>>   csuhor at zebra.net Charles Suhor wrote: (polite snip)
>>
>>  To get back to the main question, I'd like to hear more about inroads of
>>  4/4 in early jazz, i.e., before the revivals that were surely polluted,
>>  enriched, or simply affected (depending on your point of view) by the pulse
>>  of the swing years.
>
>I am a bit surprised that mention of Louis Armstrong has eluded this 
>discussion so far.
>He is quoted early in career after joining King Oliver in Chicago in 
>the early 1920s as
>saying on his first night at Lincoln Gardens with the band:
>
>"I particularly enjoyed Lil that night, with that four (4) beats to 
>the bar-for a woman I
>thought she was really wonderful" (Page 50, "Louis Armstrong, In His 
>Own Words" edited by
>Thomas Brothers - Oxford University Press.)
>
>There are many other quotes of Louis in various places at various 
>times from the 1920s
>referring to, in his words, "That good ol New Orleans 4 beat."
>
>I hear 4 beats to the bar from bands Louis played with. That's plus 
>Louis' words on the
>subject is good enough for me to think that 2 beat banjo tuba came 
>after New Orleans 4
>beat with its guitar, double bass rhythm. And that N. O. 4 beat 
>preceded swing as well as
>"Dixieland", as most of us white folks categorize it. And, of 
>course, occurred well
>before the "revival".
>
>Hey, could it be that banjo - tuba 2 beat polluted the original New 
>Orleans Jazz Form?
>;-) VBG.
>
>Cheers,
>Steve Barbone
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 18:41:18 -0400
>From: "Brian Towers" <towers at allstream.net>
>To: <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
>Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] 4/4 Rhythm
>Message-ID: <000a01c45717$b4ae4280$44729a8e at home>
>References: <E1Bc7Xz-000Fd2-01 at ml.islandnet.com>
>	<40D6063F.8A24191F at earthlink.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Precedence: list
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>
>Interesting input from Steve on the 4 beats to the bar - slightly
>tongue-in-cheek I suspect!
>Another question - the New Orleans 4 beat sound of the 1920's had quite a
>different sound and feel to it than the 4 beat sounds of the 1930/40's swing
>era.  Is it because the New Orleanians played right up on top of the beat,
>whereas the Swing era rhythm sections played ever-so-slightly behind the
>beat?
>Perhaps John Petters can enlighten us on this aspect?
>Cheers,
>Brian Towers
>
>From: "Stephen Barbone" <barbonestreet at earthlink.net>
>To: <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>; <csuhor at zebra.net>
>Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 5:48 PM
>Subject: [Dixielandjazz] 4/4 Rhythm
>
>
>>  >  csuhor at zebra.net Charles Suhor wrote: (polite snip)
>>  >
>>  > To get back to the main question, I'd like to hear more about inroads of
>>  > 4/4 in early jazz, i.e., before the revivals that were surely polluted,
>>  > enriched, or simply affected (depending on your point of view) by the
>pulse
>>  > of the swing years.
>>
>>  I am a bit surprised that mention of Louis Armstrong has eluded this
>discussion so far.
>>  He is quoted early in career after joining King Oliver in Chicago in the
>early 1920s as
>>  saying on his first night at Lincoln Gardens with the band:
>>
>>  "I particularly enjoyed Lil that night, with that four (4) beats to the
>bar-for a woman I
>>  thought she was really wonderful" (Page 50, "Louis Armstrong, In His Own
>Words" edited by
>>  Thomas Brothers - Oxford University Press.)
>>
>>  There are many other quotes of Louis in various places at various times
>from the 1920s
>>  referring to, in his words, "That good ol New Orleans 4 beat."
>>
>>  I hear 4 beats to the bar from bands Louis played with. That's plus Louis'
>words on the
>>  subject is good enough for me to think that 2 beat banjo tuba came after
>New Orleans 4
>>  beat with its guitar, double bass rhythm. And that N. O. 4 beat preceded
>swing as well as
>>  "Dixieland", as most of us white folks categorize it. And, of course,
>occurred well
>>  before the "revival".
>>
>>  Hey, could it be that banjo - tuba 2 beat polluted the original New
>Orleans Jazz Form?
>>  ;-) VBG.
>>
>>  Cheers,
>>  Steve Barbone
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:23:12 +1000
>From: Bill Haesler <bhaesler at bigpond.net.au>
>To: dixieland jazz mail list <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
>Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Georgia Sunset - Cake-Walk
>Message-ID: <BCFC6790.36F9%bhaesler at bigpond.net.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
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>Message: 3
>
>Dear friends,
>As a postscript to this thread regarding the record of "Georgia Sunset -
>Cake-Walk" (note hyphens) made by a 16-year-old Dan Barrett with Hal Smith's
>Down Home Jazz Band, I did some research yesterday and found that it was
>composed by Danish-born J Bodewalt  Lampe (known as 'JB' and author of
>"Creole Belles") in 1908 and recorded by Arthur Pryor's Band for Victor on
>22 Sept 1909 and again on 3 Sept 1924.
>Although some of Pryor's recordings have appeared on LP and CD 'Ragtime'
>compilations over the years, I have yet to find if this particular tune of
>his has been reissued.
>David A Jasen's fine source book (Recorded Ragtime 1897-1958. Shoe String
>Press 1973) lists only the Pryor versions of "Georgia Sunset", as does
>Rust's 'Jazz Records'. So the Hal Smith recording may be a historical
>second.
>Memo for John Farrell (who knows much about these things). Has "Georgia
>Sunset - Cake-Walk" appeared as a piano roll?
>Very kind regards,
>Bill.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 06:44:35 +0100
>From: "John Farrell" <stridepiano at tesco.net>
>To: "Bill Haesler" <bhaesler at bigpond.net.au>,
>	"dixieland jazz mail list" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
>Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Georgia Sunset - Cake-Walk
>Message-ID: <000801c45754$b894ded0$23f0fc3e at yourcyfkdpcoe0>
>References: <BCFC6790.36F9%bhaesler at bigpond.net.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
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>Precedence: list
>Message: 4
>
>My old mate Bill Haesler asked :
>
>"Memo for John Farrell (who knows much about these things). Has "Georgia
>  Sunset - Cake-Walk" appeared as a piano roll?"
>
>I can find no mention of it in any of my piano roll reference books, however
>I have posted a request for information on a mechanical music list to which
>I belong and shall report back if any is forthcoming.
>
>John Farrell
>http://homepages.tesco.net/~stridepiano/midifiles.htm
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 07:00:47 +0100
>From: "John Farrell" <stridepiano at tesco.net>
>To: "Bill Haesler" <bhaesler at bigpond.net.au>,
>	"dixieland jazz mail list" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
>Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Georgia Sunset - Cake-Walk
>Message-ID: <000201c4575d$6ad3b190$26ecfc3e at yourcyfkdpcoe0>
>References: <BCFC6790.36F9%bhaesler at bigpond.net.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Precedence: list
>Message: 5
>
>My old mate Bill Haesler asked :
>
>"Memo for John Farrell (who knows much about these things). Has "Georgia
>  Sunset - Cake-Walk" appeared as a piano roll?"
>
>I can find no mention of it in any of my piano roll reference books, however
>I have posted a request for information on a mechanical music list to which
>I belong and shall report back if any is forthcoming.
>
>Note that the Danish composer of this piece, Jens Bodewalt Lampe, also used
>the pseudonym Ribe Danmark.
>
>John Farrell
>http://homepages.tesco.net/~stridepiano/midifiles.htm
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 08:05:49 +0100
>From: "John Farrell" <stridepiano at tesco.net>
>To: "DJML" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
>Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Georgia Sunset
>Message-ID: <005401c4575f$2268f530$26ecfc3e at yourcyfkdpcoe0>
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
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>Precedence: list
>Message: 6
>
>This might be teaching my grandmother how to suck eggs, but I forgot to
>mention in my response to Bill Haesler that Jens Bodewalt Lampe, the Danish
>composer of this tune, also masqueraded under the pseudonym Ribe Danmark.
>
>John Farrell
>http://homepages.tesco.net/~stridepiano/midifiles.htm
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 08:20:20 +0100
>From: "John Farrell" <stridepiano at tesco.net>
>To: "DJML" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
>Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Georgia Sunset
>Message-ID: <000701c45760$4f5405c0$18f0fc3e at yourcyfkdpcoe0>
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
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>Precedence: list
>Message: 7
>
>Apologies for the duplicated posts - there is something screwy going on in
>my PC this morning. If it continues to misbehave I shall chop up the
>accursed thing and replace it with a crate of carrier pigeons.
>
>John Farrell
>http://homepages.tesco.net/~stridepiano/midifiles.htm
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:24:26 +1000
>From: Bill Haesler <bhaesler at bigpond.net.au>
>To: John Farrell <stridepiano at tesco.net>,
>	dixieland jazz mail list <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
>Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Georgia Sunset
>Message-ID: <BCFCF47A.3715%bhaesler at bigpond.net.au>
>In-Reply-To: <005401c4575f$2268f530$26ecfc3e at yourcyfkdpcoe0>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
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>Precedence: list
>Message: 8
>
>Dear John,
>Regarding your information: >Jens Bodewalt Lampe, the Danish composer of
>this tune, also masqueraded under the pseudonym Ribe Danmark.<
>
>I was going to include that, but did not want to sound like a smart ass.
>Just kidding mate!
>I was also going to say (courtesy of Terry Waldo's great book 'This is
>Ragtime) that JB was also chief arranger for Remick Music in the 19-teens.
>Very kind regards,
>Bill.
>Mmmmmm. 'Bodewalt'.
>They don't christen kids with names like that any more.
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 08:31:32 -0500
>From: "Norman Vickers" <nvickers1 at cox.net>
>To: "DJML" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
>Subject: [Dixielandjazz]
>  Jackie Paris--obit- toured with Charlie Parker, Charles Mingus, and
>  Lionel Hampton
>Message-ID: <DOEBJPCEMCFKPNHKLFHNOEBBEHAA.nvickers1 at cox.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
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>Precedence: list
>Message: 9
>
>Listmates:  Although Jackie Paris was not a dixielander.  There are many
>parallels, so I post for your conderation.
>
>Norman Vickers
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>
>" a career that began when he was a child, but never brought him to fame."
>
>I daresay that  many avowed jazz fans may not have even heard of
>vocalist-guitaristJackie Paris. Even so,you may find this obituary of
>interest.
>
>So many work in the jazz arena, yet so few get the public accolades. Here's
>a bit of jazz history for your consideration.
>
>_____________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Jackie Paris, 79, a Jazz Artist Who Sang With Legendary Bands,
>Dies
>
>by Peter Keepnews
>New York Times, June 19, 2004
>
>Jackie Paris, the jazz artist who first sang the words to the
>Thelonious Monk standard "'Round Midnight" near the beginning
>of the
>bebop era and performed for nearly seven decades with some
>of the
>biggest names in jazz, died on Thursday in Manhattan. He was
>79 and
>lived in Manhattan.
>
>The cause was complications of bone cancer, said David
>Grausman, a
>friend.
>
>Mr. Paris amassed glowing reviews and the admiration of his
>peers in
>a career that began when he was a child, but never brought him
>to
>fame.
>
>He toured with Charlie Parker and worked with Charles Mingus.
>Ella
>Fitzgerald was said to have counted him among her favorite
>singers.
>The critic Leonard Feather praised him as one of the handful of
>male
>singers who had retained the true jazz sound.
>
>But widespread success eluded him. In 1962 he told an
>interviewer
>that he had worked only 20 weeks over the previous five years.
>When
>he referred to himself as a legend or said his albums were all
>collectors' items, it was with a mixture of pride in his
>accomplishments and regret that he remained unknown even to
>many jazz
>fans.
>
>Carlo Jackie Paris was born in Nutley, N.J., on Sept. 20, 1924.
>Encouraged by an uncle who had played guitar with Paul
>Whiteman's
>orchestra and by fellow performers like the dancer Bill
>Robinson,
>known as Bojangles, he broke into vaudeville with a song-and-
>dance
>act as a child. By the early 1940's he had begun working as a
>singer
>and guitarist in New York.
>
>After two years in the Army, he returned to New York in 1946 and
>was
>drawn to the fabled jazz clubs on 52nd Street, where he worked
>as the
>leader of his own trio and as a sideman, most notably with
>Parker.
>
>He later worked with Lionel Hampton's big band and with
>Mingus. He
>also recorded a handful of albums as a leader and performed in
>nightclubs and on television. In the 60's and 70's, he frequently
>worked with his wife, the singer Anne-Marie Moss, from whom
>he was
>later divorced. His second wife, Joan, died in the early 90's. He
>left no immediate survivors.
>
>In recent years Mr. Paris made most of his income teaching
>master
>classes and giving private lessons. But he also continued to
>record
>and perform. His most recent album, "The Intimate Jackie
>Paris," was
>released by the small Hudson label in 2001.
>
>He had been scheduled to perform on Aug. 3 and 4 as part of
>a "Legendary Vocal Week" at the Iridium jazz club in Manhattan.
>He
>last performed in New York in March, at the Jazz Standard.
>Reviewing
>that performance, Robert L. Daniels of Variety wrote that Mr.
>Paris's
>familiar, warm, crusty baritone voice had lost none of its earthy
>passion or velvety luster.
>					--End--
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 19:27:21 +0200
>From: "Robert Smith" <robert.smith at mitransport.no>
>To: "Louis Lince" <louislince at neworleansmusic.demon.co.uk>
>Cc: Dixieland Jazz <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
>Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Sam Morgan discography
>Message-ID: <002101c457b5$0340ec20$6d6c8bc3 at mit07>
>References: <001601c45642$89dcdd80$466c8bc3 at mit07>
>	<000701c456bf$ae6a7090$2d85b050 at yourr50edlrte1>
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
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>Message: 10
>
>Hello Louis
>
>Many thanks for clearing up the question of the two pianists (and the =
>two drummers), and for the info. on Andrew Morgan. I don't have a =
>date-of-birth for Andrew, but as he was one of Sam's (born 1895) younger =
>brothers, he must have been knocking on 70 years old when he toured =
>Europe. I shall shortly be sending an order to Jerry for some CD's, so =
>I'll see if he can provide it.
>
>Once again, many thanks!
>
>Cheers
>
>Bob
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 13:35:50 -0400
>From: Stephen Barbone <barbonestreet at earthlink.net>
>To: Dixieland Jazz Mailing List <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
>Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Dirty Dancing
>Message-ID: <40D71C77.6473340A at earthlink.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854";
>	x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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>Reply-To: barbonestreet at earthlink.net
>Message: 11
>
>This is a long article, but very relevent to attracting kids to the
>music. The one thing the article does not say, but I do is that OKOM is
>very well received as slow dance "grind" music that they are dancing to
>these days. We marvel at how they dance to Basin Street Blues, or St
>James Infirmary or whatever. Especially if you announce that Basis
>Street was where all the whore houses were when this music was born.
>
>Jazz was, and should be now, SEXY Music. Slow and medium bounce tunes
>work. I Want A Little Girl, or Someday You'll Be Sorry, etc, especially
>as a vocal.
>
>Cheers,
>Steve Barbone
>
>June 21, 2004 - NY Times
>
>Hold On to Your Corsage. It's Dirty Dancing Time.
>
>By ERIKA KINETZ
>
>          When you mix girls in high-heeled shoes with boys in suits,
>turn down the lights and turn up the music, what happens is now
>surprisingly consistent. After years of competitive break dancing, body
>slamming and solo freestyling, teenagers are dancing with each other
>again.
>
>But the couples dancing at high school proms around New York and the
>rest of the country as the school year ends would be unrecognizable to
>aficionados of disco and swing.
>
>Most of the dancing is not of the cheek-to-cheek variety, a fact that
>has caused controversy in some quarters. Though the dancing varies in
>intensity, the partnering position of choice, back to front, is at once
>less intimate and more sexual, and the couplings, even at a formal event
>like the prom, constantly shift.
>
>Called grinding, freaking or "backing it up" in its most brazen form,
>this kind of dancing is not flirtation. It is war.
>
>"It's like a battle between you and the guy," said Candy Javier, 18, a
>senior at Monroe Academy for Visual Arts and Design, one of five South
>Bronx high schools that had a joint prom earlier this month at the
>V.I.P. Country Club in New Rochelle, N.Y. "They're pushing forward, and
>you're pushing back." She shrugged. "You're not doing it," she added.
>"You're just dancing."
>
>How does a girl know if she's won the battle?
>
>"The guy gets anxious and takes a break," Candy said with a slow smile.
>
>Its detractors say such dancing is nothing less than simulated sex. In
>the last few years, schools across the country have started to use a
>variety of tools ó including instructional videos, flashlights, "time
>out" corners and contracts that stipulate acceptable conduct ó to cool
>off the dance floor.
>
>But kids are dancing with one another in other ways, too. Music exerts a
>strong influence on social dance, and the resurgence of couples dancing
>has been fueled by the popularity of reggae, merengue and salsa music,
>as well as by the mollifying effect R&B has had on some hip-hop.
>
>Merengue and salsa inspire people to turn around and face each other.
>Space appears between dance partners. They start flirting, an art that
>is possible only with a bit of distance.
>
>Reggae musicians, meanwhile, have rekindled an old tradition of
>pantomime dances, urging their listeners to "row the boat" or "signal
>the plane," which they do, in dutiful unison. And R. Kelly could be
>considered the world's hippest square dance caller. "Step, step, side to
>side, round and round," he says in his song "Step in the Name of Love,"
>and people do it, just as R. Kelly does in the video.
>
>It may also be easier to pair off these days because the pairings often
>don't mean much, with many teens coming to their proms in groups or
>alone and remaining free agents all night.
>
>While boutonnieres and floor-length satin tend to pacify the hips, even
>the toned-down dancing at proms reveals a lot about the mores of
>male-female interaction.
>
>"Social dance is about change," said Sally Sommer, a professor at
>Florida State University, in Tallahassee, who specializes in the topic.
>"It's terribly important because it is probably one of our best
>barometers of social behaviors."
>
>Visits this month to four proms in the New York metropolitan area and
>conversations with people who went to others revealed patterns that hold
>from the Upper East Side to the South Bronx and from New Rochelle to
>Queens. Like music, dancing has been affected by the homogenizing forces
>of MTV, VH1 and BET. It, too, cuts across class and racial boundaries.
>These days, everybody ó black, white, rich, poor, urban, suburban ó
>wants to hear hip-hop and reggae. And girls on dance floors everywhere
>press their backsides into boys.
>
>Michael Mitjans, a D.J. who has spun records at about 10 proms a year
>since 1989, said that this year at the Dalton School, a private school
>on the Upper East Side, "I threw on Madonna, and I lost the dance floor.
>As soon as I switched back to hip-hop, it was like nothing had
>happened."
>
>Joseph LaBoy, 16, who assists Mr. Mitjans, said he was surprised by some
>of the grinding he saw at Dalton's prom. "I'm from the Bronx," he said.
>"I know how to do that stuff. I'm shocked to see them do it."
>
>Officials at Dalton did not respond to phone calls and e-mail messages
>seeking comment.
>
>Mr. Mitjans said some schools asked him not to play reggae and its
>Latin-influenced cousin, regeton, because they tended to inspire
>particularly dirty dancing. "That stuff is real lethal for sexy
>dancing," he said. D.J.'s like Mr. Mitjans help police the dance floor,
>switching reggae to merengue, for example, if the dancing gets too hot.
>
>Wining (also spelled whining or wainin), a Caribbean dance similar to
>backing it up, is often done to reggae music. John Scott, 18, a senior
>at the Monroe Academy for Business and Law in the South Bronx, learned
>how to wine from his wife, Shera, who learned the dance back home in
>Trinidad when she was 7.
>
>"I was like, `oh yes, oh yes, this girl knows some stuff,' " John
>recalled. "It's like your hips become one. I love her to lead."
>
>Though it is sexual, the popular back-to-front configuration is, in most
>cases, very impersonal. It is impossible to look at the face of your
>partner, and some say they are more focused on the crowd, anyway.
>
>Sometimes, that lack of intimacy is the point. "I think front-to-front
>is more intimate," said a girl who gave her name as Gabriella. She was
>sitting with her friend Liz Grobel on the penthouse balcony of Le Parker
>Meridien hotel in Midtown Manhattan, taking a smoking break during the
>prom for LycÈe FranÁais de New York, a French day school in Manhattan.
>"At clubs, there's always the risk of them kissing you if you're front
>to front." Liz added grimly, "You try to avoid that contact."
>
>Joseph, the assistant D.J., said he didn't feel weird about what he
>acknowledged was sexual contact with different girls in public. "No big
>deal," he said. "I'm not doing anything bad to the girl. I'm just
>dancing with her."
>
>For John, the same movements can be sexual in one context and not in
>another. He said that while he might do the same dance with other girls,
>wining with Shera was special.
>
>"It's never like with her," he said. "It's all about the emotional."
>
>On the dance floor of the V.I.P. club, amid a dense, seething mass of
>pressed curls and rhinestones, three girls faced into the center of a
>circle and backed their bottoms into the laps of three boys, who grabbed
>onto their hips. The girls bent forward at the waist every once in a
>while and thrust their hands to the ground, grinding like that for a
>while, hips high in the air. The Foreign Language Academy of Global
>Studies, one of the South Bronx schools represented at the prom, this
>year banned such close contact at dances held on school property.
>
>The music switched to merengue, and suddenly, the postures in the room
>shifted. People turned around to face each other. Space appeared between
>dance partners. They started flirting.
>
>The notion that sexual moves might be "just dancing," separable from sex
>itself, did not go over well with the French teenagers at the LycÈe
>FranÁais prom. This Upper East Side school's student body is almost
>evenly divided between French, Franco-American and American students.
>
>"In the U.S. you can dance very close, very hot with a girl," said Simon
>Seroussi, a senior who arrived from France last September. "Here
>everybody is dancing with everybody. In France you dance like that only
>if it's your girlfriend."
>
>ValÈrie Meausoone, who was wearing a strapless red dress she had picked
>up in Brazil, agreed. "In France, if a guy does that, the girl is just
>going to go away," she said.
>
>Among those who still dance for love, old-fashioned cheek-to-cheek
>dancing has not gone entirely out of style.
>
>At 10:10 one evening early this month, a scream, shrill and excited,
>went up from the southwest corner of the Copacabana's ballroom in
>Manhattan, where New Rochelle High School was having its senior prom.
>Randy Crafton, a 20-year-old who used to attend the school, had asked
>Renee Webb, an 18-year-old senior, to marry him.
>
>"I wanted everybody to see that I love her," Mr. Crafton said. "And to
>show the world I'm not scared. I'm shaking right now. I'm scared I was
>going to get a no."
>
>Renee, who had said yes, giggled.
>
>"I love her," he went on. "I didn't know what love was until I met her."
>
>Mr. Crafton, who was wearing a baggy white suit, wrapped his arms around
>Renee's waist. Renee, in a long, rhinestone-studded white gown, put her
>arms around his neck. They held onto each other like that, rocking
>slowly, for a long time. The dance floor was empty except for the ruin
>of cast-off carnations. Above them, eight disco balls threw off big,
>magic light.
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 18:43:52 +0100
>From: "John Farrell" <stridepiano at tesco.net>
>To: <barbonestreet at earthlink.net>,
>	"Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
>Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Dirty Dancing
>Message-ID: <005401c457b8$0f6edfe0$46f0fc3e at yourcyfkdpcoe0>
>References: <40D71C77.6473340A at earthlink.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Precedence: list
>Message: 12
>
>Part of an article submitted by Steve Barbone said :
>
>"such dancing is nothing less than simulated sex"
>
>Here in the UK this kind of dancing is usually performed to "The Shag".
>
>John Farrell
>http://homepages.tesco.net/~stridepiano/midifiles.htm
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:01:41 -0400
>From: "Ron L'Herault" <lherault at bu.edu>
>To: "DJML" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
>Subject: RE: [Dixielandjazz] Dirty Dancing
>Message-ID: <NHBBLPOLELMEEBAIFOHFAENMEJAA.lherault at bu.edu>
>In-Reply-To: <40D71C77.6473340A at earthlink.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Precedence: list
>Message: 13
>
>Reminds one of the song "Dancing Back to Back"   It takes you off the beaten
>track.
>
>Ron L
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: dixielandjazz-bounces at ml.islandnet.com
>[mailto:dixielandjazz-bounces at ml.islandnet.com]On Behalf Of Stephen
>Barbone
><snip>
>Hold On to Your Corsage. It's Dirty Dancing Time.
>
>By ERIKA KINETZ
>
><snip>
>Though the dancing varies in
>intensity, the partnering position of choice, back to front, is at once
>less intimate and more sexual, and the couplings, even at a formal event
>like the prom, constantly shift.
>
><snip>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:14:46 -0400
>From: Stephen Barbone <barbonestreet at earthlink.net>
>To: John Farrell <stridepiano at tesco.net>
>Cc: Dixieland Jazz Mailing List <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
>Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Re: Dirty Dancing - the shag
>Message-ID: <40D72597.5FF2F608 at earthlink.net>
>References: <40D71C77.6473340A at earthlink.net>
>	<005401c457b8$0f6edfe0$46f0fc3e at yourcyfkdpcoe0>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
>	x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Precedence: list
>Reply-To: barbonestreet at earthlink.net
>Message: 14
>
>Yes, here in USA too among some "Swing Dancers". ;-)
>
>If fellow list mate OKOM bands have not performed for kids at weddings,
>proms, parties or clubs with this atmosphere, you are missing out on a
>GREAT SCENE. Turns us old men on big time. Much better than viagra or
>other artificial stimulants. Our wives can always tell we've been
>"watching the kids again" because we come home ready for some action.
>
>Thinking back to what attracted me to this music it was: Sex, Booze, Going
>to joints owned by the mob and seeing individual stars such as Louis,
>Sidney, Tea, Omer, Miff, Edmond, Higgy, Vic, Eddie, Wild Bill, Bird, Monk,
>Dizzy, Gene (Krupa & Schroeder) ,Pres etc. All the naughty boys and all
>the naughty stuff.
>
>Only much, much later did I hear folks say that it was "artsy", and maybe
>even an "art form". I guess everything becomes legitimate given enough
>time. :-) VBG
>
>Cheers,
>Steve Barbone
>
>John Farrell wrote:
>
>>  Part of an article submitted by Steve Barbone said :
>>
>>  "such dancing is nothing less than simulated sex"
>>
>>  Here in the UK this kind of dancing is usually performed to "The Shag".
>>
>>  John Farrell
>>  http://homepages.tesco.net/~stridepiano/midifiles.htm
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:43:35 -0400
>From: csuhor at zebra.net (Charles Suhor)
>To: dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
>Cc: dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
>Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Re: Matthews Band of Lockport
>Message-ID: <E1BcTlX-0008Qj-00 at mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Precedence: list
>Message: 15
>
>DAN HARDIE WROTE:
>I doubt anyone alive has heard the Matthews Band of Lockport. They were
>active around 1906, one of a number of bands in districts surrounding New
>Orleans and look like a fairly traditional brass band of the time. (See p
>82 of the Ancestry of Jazz). I doubt they played jazz or recorded though
>this is probably Charles Suhor's territory.. he might be able to get
>further information.
>
>
>Dan and listmates,
>
>I'm not well versed in the details of early jazz, as my recent questions
>about 4/4 v. 2/4 show. My intensive research and life experiences have been
>in the postwar years in New Orleans. This of course involved knowing many
>then-living foundation artists as well as looking back, though not
>comprehensively, at the early years.
>
>I did do some deeper digging into early artists when a tribute poem about
>1st generation players from the Thibodaux, La., area was commissioned.
>Lockport is nearby but I didn't notice the Matthews name, and I had to be
>selective in the names that did come up. It's very likely that Dan Hardie's
>comment below is right on. As Gilbert Erskine has said, not every player in
>and around N.O. at the turn of the century was a key link in jazz history,
>though there's a tendency among some figs and scholars to lionize and even
>canonize the lot of them. It's enough that they were part of the rich and
>complex cultural milieu, maybe contributing to the interlocking causal
>events in untraceable ways, like in chaos theory where the famous butterfly
>wing causes a monsoon halfway across the world. Hey, that's aplenty for me.
>
>
>My info source for the poem was the wonderful Tulane Jazz Archive. I don't
>want to use up my good will chits with a question about the Matthews Band
>in Lockport, esp. since I might go back to Bruce Raeburn for more info
>about the 2-beat/4-beat question. I'm betting though that they'll search
>for the name and let you know if it's on their radar. (504-865-5688; Alma
>Freeman, adw1954 at tulane.edu, is great for this kind of question.)
>
>
>Charlie Suhor
>
>
>Dear Tom,
>I doubt anyone alive has heard the Matthews Band of Lockport,
>They were active around 1906, one of a number of bands in districts
>surrounding New Orleans and look like a fairly traditional brass band of
>the time. (See p 82 of the Ancestry of Jazz). I doubt they played jazz or
>recorded though this is probably Charles Suhor's territory.. he might be
>able to
>get further information
>regards Dan Hardie
>Check out the website at
>http://members.ozemail.com.au/~darnhard/EarlyJazzHistory.html
>
>On Thursday, June 17, 2004, at 03:42  PM, TCASHWIGG at aol.com wrote:
>
>>  Come on fellas. some of you Older than me guys must have some stories
>>  or
>>  reccollections or even lies about these groups.   This is supposed to
>>  be THE
>>  definitive list of Experts on Traditional Jazz, and I got my butt
>>  chewed out a
>>  couple years ago because I admited I did not know who Clarence
>>  Williams was.
>>  Now if a Johnny come lately like me can know about these guys the rest
>>  of you
>>  must be witholding a shipload of information.
>>
>>  So far the only guy who has responded to this post has been my buddy
>>  Tito
>>  Martino from Brazil.   But then again maybe the only guys who ever
>>  played
>>  Dixieland or Traditional Jazz  really were Bix. Louis, Buddy Bolden,
>>  Turk Murphy and
>>  Lu Watters or Dukes of Dixieland,   :))
>>
>>  How about some recollections about the following groups from some of
>>  the old
>>  timers who saw or played with them.
>>
>>  Louis Dumaine and his Jazzola Eight:
>>
>>  Sam Morgan's Jazz Band:
>>
>>  Pickette-Parham & Apollo Syncopators:
>>
>>  Bennie Moten & his Kansas City Orchestra:
>>
>>  Frenchy's String Band:
>>
>>  Ben Tobier & The California Cyclones:
>>
>>  George McClennon's Jazz Devils:
>>
>>  or How about Frankie Franko & His Louisianians:
>>
>>  That ought to keep some of you busy in the archives for a few days and
>>  stir
>>  up some interesting threads.
>>
>>
>>  Is there anybody out there who ever heard The Mathews Band from
>>  Lockport,
>>  Louisiana Live??
>>
>>
>>  Cheers,
>>
>>  Tom Wiggins
>>  Inquiring minds want to know.
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  Dixielandjazz mailing list
>>  Dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
>>  http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Dixielandjazz mailing list
>Dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
>http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
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>
>
>End of Dixielandjazz Digest, Vol 18, Issue 33
>*********************************************