[Dixielandjazz] RE: Drummer = Time Keeper (not always)

[Kurt]

Good points Steve, but of course if there is no drummer in the band, the
bass player must be the main timekeeper.  And if the drummer is not playing
with a bass drum, he must still keep time on what he has left of his set.
Without the bass drum being played, the bass player takes on a more
prominent role.

I have heard Tim's "I've Found A New Baby".  It is great. Listen close and
you'll hear Hal Smith doing his usual great job riding his bass drum.  Very
tasteful, not too much - just setting a pulse for the rest of the band.

A drummer that can't keep time is the worst possible thing I can think of.

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Barbone [mailto:barbonestreet at earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 9:16 PM
To: Kurt
Cc: Randy Fendrick; Dixieland Jazz Mailing List
Subject: Re: Drummer = Time Keeper (not always)


Respectfully disagree. Working in bop groups convinced me that the Bass has
that function in many of them. Talking with Bop drummers confirms that. Even
in
some Dixieland groups. For example, if you go to NYC and hear the Gotham
Jazzman, you will see a 7 piece Dixieland group wherein the drummer has no
bass
drum. Only a snare, because of storage limitations at the venue. It was a
drag
to cart the bass drum to NYC for Dick who lives 60 miles away, out on Long
Island, but he could store a snare there. (He comes into the city by train).

Bassist Dick Waldburger was quick to tell Sherman, "If you can avoid playing
the bass drum, I'll supply the pulsing beat." (exact quote, Mississippi Rag,
December 1999) And so in that band, the bass supplies the time. Or if you
listen to Tex Wyndham's Red Lion Jazz Band in the Philadelphia area, you
will
hear the bass sax as the time keeper because there is no drummer.

While most Dixieland Bands use the drummer as the time keeper, I guess what
I
am saying is that there are no hard and fast rules about who does what, or
how
one should play Dixieland, or whatever. Because as soon as you make one,
somebody is going to come along and change it. And remember that there was
no
drum in the Hot Five, and very limited percussion in the Hot 7, confined to
a
choke cymbal now and then as John Petters pointed out.

Other Examples: Lot's of trios and quartets have no drum so someone else is
responsible for time. Who is the timekeeper depends upon the band. There are
many who would even say Freddie Green kept the time in Basie's Band. One of
his
nicknames was "metronome".

And many Dixieland Bands do not play according to other "Rules" Perfect
example
of that is The Tim Laughlin group in New Orleans that Dan Augustine put many
of
us on to. That group uses all sorts of "modern" musical devices and updated
changes that defy the Dixieland Rules. And they do it well.

They are a WONDERFUL band. Wonderfully fresh and quite a few on the DJML
seconded that opinion. you can hear clips as Dan posted at:

http://timlaughlin.com/music.htm#IsleOfOrleans

Be sure to scroll down his CDs and give a listen to I've Found A New Baby,
after you listen to some of Tim's own compositions.

Amazing how they play Dixieland their way. Like it or not, it seems to have
an
audience greater than that of the more numerous "trad bands" in New Orleans.

Rules? They were made to be broken. What's right in Jazz? Musician
placement?
Chord Changes? Uniforms?  Instrumentation? Song Choices? Timekeeper?  Set
Length? Sound? Sit In Policy? The answer is always the same. What ever works
for you and your band, or the band in which you play.

Cheers,
Steve Barbone

Kurt wrote:

> With all due respect Steve, the drummer is ALWAYS the time keeper, but it
is
> everyone else's responsibility to play in time too, especially the bass
> player.  This has been true in every type of band I've ever played in -
from
> concert bands (watch the bass drummer on marches) to modern jazz and big
> band/swing, Klezmer, marching band and especially traditional and
dixieland.
>
> When anyone in the band can't keep time, it is hell.  It's no fun being
the
> drummer when you have to hold back a rushing piano player or soloists that
> don't play in the groove.
>
> Kurt
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dixielandjazz-bounces at ml.islandnet.com
> [mailto:dixielandjazz-bounces at ml.islandnet.com]On Behalf Of Stephen
> Barbone
> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 6:39 PM
> To: Randy Fendrick
> Cc: Dixieland Jazz Mailing List
> Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Re: Symphony players and rhythm sections
>
> Randy Fendrick wrote: (polite snip)
>
> > As for listening to the drummer in a jazz group.  I have always felt
> > that that drummer is not the most important person in the rhythm
> > section, but would argue for the bass player.  I have played plenty of
> > small group things without a drummer.  I have even played big band gigs
> > without a drummer.  The bass player sets the tempo, along with the bass
> > line,  and sets up the chord structure.  The guitar player (banjo,
> > piano, whatever) carries its on from there.  In the old days, with a
> > four beat bass drum, in 4/4 time, yea, the drummer did it, but I think
> > it was Philly Joe Jones, who said something to the effect that his foot
> > got tired that's why he stopped playing on every beat and began to use
> > the pedal as an accent tool.
>
> Thanks Randy:
>
> I totally agree. In the more modern jazz groups with whom I play, the bass
> player is the time keeper and the drummer the accent man. However, in
> those Dixieland groups with whom I play, the drummer keeps the time. Since
> this is a Dixieland list, enough said.
>
> Every once in a while I end up as a sideman in a group with a modern
> drummer and an Dixieland bass player. Usually the bass player goes nuts
> and says; "I can't hear "one".  Man what a drag. Our bassist, for example,
> always needs to hear "one".
>
> When neither claims the timekeeper function, it's hell.
>
> Cheers,
> Steve Barbone
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dixielandjazz mailing list
> Dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz