[Dixielandjazz] Whores and Big Bands
LARRY'S Signs and Large Format Printing
sign.guy at charter.net
Mon Dec 6 01:22:46 PST 2004
Some really good comments Tom. It's true we dropped the ball in the 80's
and we really didn't see it coming but looking back that group needed to
come to an end and I needed to get on with my music. I said to the drummer
in one of my disagreements with him that when we are 60 look around and see
who's still playing. I'm still at it but the other two aren't.
The advantage that a DJ booker has over us is that he can, like any other
merchant, make multiple sales for the same date but we can only make one.
So because of that fact alone his advertising becomes more effective
therefore cheaper. More bang for the buck. How many times have I turned
jobs over to other bands or lost them because I was already booked. I have
never been a booker so I didn't have a stable of bands handy. That could be
a failing but people can just do so much. I kind of like to keep the wife
DJ's in my city have full page yellow page ads. That costs a bundle. Bands
have one small line. As they used to say where's the beef. Again the power
goes to the bucks. We simply can't compete in the advertising field.
I see it as the musicians fault too: bands that stretched breaks too long;
ate when they weren't supposed to; heavy drinking; bookers that put
anything out there and called it a band; starting late; not looking
professional. The union was at fault too in not to this day recognizing
that the part timer is important, making rules that kept musicians from
competing such as having a sound engineer to work your guitar amp and PA, no
drum machines. It's not all about the Symphony musician or Show musician or
the headliner but it's about the guy who is out there jobbing and booking
singles too. Our local has alienated almost everyone with their infighting,
inaction and support for the full timers mainly the symphony. Virtually
everyone I know has dropped out.
Three years ago, because of some statements in the locals newsletter, I had
a conversation with one of the officers and told them that I was going to
use electronic backing and that I was going to treat the musicians as sub
contractors and not employees but that I would always pay scale or more. I
was going to hire non union musicians but if they wanted their names and
phone numbers so they could call them that was OK with me since they had
them all in the union book anyway. They told me I could do anything I
wanted. They didn't care how I kept my books (This is contrary to rules by
I was ready to walk out if any of my comments to them caused them any
problems. So far I'm still a member and no one has hassled me. They want
There has been a rumor that the Symphony people are wanting to go with
another union but I don't know how true that is.
----- Original Message -----
From: <TCASHWIGG at aol.com>
To: <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Whores and Big Bands
In a message dated 12/5/04 4:43:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
sign.guy at charter.net writes:
> Music lessons support a lot of us as does teaching. We are at cross
> purposes when we tell a student how well they play then expect them to not
> go out and try to do it. I think that all of us fit into the student
> category at one time or another. As for me I have made my living from one
> phase or another of the music business all my life.
> Teacher/musician/bandleader/director/AF band. This doesn't exactly make
> a part timer at it although the pure Professional musician may look on me
> a part timer because I don't play six nights a week in a pub.
There is noting wrong with what you do or any other guy or gal who does the
same thing, diversification in our business is not a bad thing at all, you
still a professional musician when you do multiple tasks because you are
capable of doing so. Bravo.
While working six nights a week in a PUB does qualify one as a professional
musician, it does not necessarily speak to your level of professionalism so
would not scorn the musician who makes his professional living doing that
more than I would the guy who makes his strictly as a teacher, or the one
makes his playing with the symphony, They indeed are all Professionals
at different chosen levels. Not a thing wrong with that. However, playing
six nights in a week in a pub also does not necessarily make one a
musician either, there are many amateurs who do that as well, some good and
some bad. All professionals are not necessarily good either, just like
guy with a Law degree is not good or the Dr. or whatever.
People will pay for a name even a has been name.
No question about it, Everybody wants to be in show business or know
somebody who is, and the wannabe promoter will pay ten times what a Has been
worth just to get his picture made with the guy and brag to his friends that
is close personal friends with the Has Been. When I wear my Agent/Talent
Buyer Hat I love to get a call from one of these idiots, who will offer me
$80,000.00 for an hour show by some has been act for their convention or
Fundraiser for some good cause. I have on occasions taken their money and
the act for four days for the money and promoted them properly in other
to make money for me and them. Did I rip them off, Nope not in the least,
they threw the money out which was not theirs usually anyway, because they
not ask what the act would cost or care, they were just dead set on getting
and getting that photo with the guy that they were listening to on the radio
in the back seat of their daddy's merry oldsmobile with Betty sue, etc.,
thirty years ago. These are the guys who buy talent from the agents who
bands that sound like the stars, they call them "Tribute Shows"
us Professionals in the business call them "Almost As Good" shows. Like the
band that had several hit recordings but the lead singer is no longer with
band so they really don't sound like the records anyway. You know like Tom
Jones show without Tom Jones, or Blood Sweat & Tears without David Clayton
Thomas on vocals.
They will also pay big bucks to "out of town" musicians.
For what reason I haven't a clue.
Because they are not over exposed and familiar with the local audience like
most of the local guys, familiarity often breeds indifference, as your sound
and show become predictable. The trick here is to find out ahead of time
coming to town and then rehearse and prepare a show to kick their ass and
borrow or steal your way onto the show as their opening act, kick their ass
and make sure the press and local media see it and hear it and write and
about it. That is how you get respect at home, then take your show to the
town and do it there. The touring traveling acts always get paid more
other wise they could not tour and or expand their following and income.
I play with several road bands that come through and they book for more
than the local
The fact that you are called to play with these road groups speaks very
highly of your talent and skills, and if they pay you better than you can
normally at home by yourself than that is also a good thing and shows
your professionalism. You might even be making less money than they are but
you don't need a hotel room or meals and transportation provided for you
you live there. On the other hand they have to pay all their expenses for
maintaining a home and auto, etc., back at home and spend money for food on
road, transportation, and housing on top of their regular pay for
Therefore the road warriors must and should always make twice as much money
on the road as they do at home for the same job. It is by no means cheap to
tour with a band and or keep a good road band working, and often because the
promoters are not sophisticated enough to realize that the out of town acts
and do bring out folks to see them simply because they don't see them every
week in the local pub, it is something different at least for one night and
be a lasting memory for them, and it is usually still cheaper than them
to travel 3oo to a 1000 miles and get a hotel, etc., to go see that act in a
far away city.
Times are changing. The first big shock we had was in the 80's when the
DJ's really hit hard. Before that they were just a nuisance. I didn't
how badly we were outgunned until a friend that was booking 10 DJ set ups
wanted me to go out and spin records. This is how it worked.
This should have been easy to see coming Larry, Hell we had already seen the
injection of the electronic drum/rhythm machine, then came the synth to
replace all the horns and even the bass. Musicians rolled over and played
over the World for this Technology boon. They should have brought it into
their own shows and kept the Damned DJs under control as sidemen and not let
slip into the position of being in Show Business and becoming Personalities
in their own right. Any Chimpanzee can play a tape or record machine.
Now many of them make more money than live bands on a regular basis and have
brainwashed the music buying public with their marketing that they are
than a live band because they play what the customer wants. HEllooooooo.
of these ruthless clowns finding new money for playing records constantly
dissed musicians at all levels and simply out sold the musicians to their
marketplace. I might add that the AFof M stood right there and watched it
happen too, but what could we expect, after all they too were mostly
out of touch with the changing market place and trends to eliminate our
He was booking 10 setups on Saturday and 3-5 on Friday nights at $500 each
($750 for lights too) ($7500). He booked 10-12 gigs per week during the day
and other evenings at $300. ($3000) That's $10,000 a week. His expenses
were $200 per DJ or $125 if he had the equipment set up for them. He paid
about $1000 a month for yellow page ads and he was able to do mass mailings
through the coupon people who mail out to zip code areas. His record
expenses were make copies for each DJ. At that time he had a tape set up
that was really clever. the tape machines could cue up a tune. He had
everything on rolodexes with the tape number and the cue number. DJ takes
request, looks it up. puts it into the machine and cues it up. plays tune,
rewinds tape and puts it back. Now the DJ's can do this with much more
How did He and they get away with this? very simple folks: MARKETING
not sitting around the house moaning and complaining because the phone was
not ringing or the Big Yellow Gig Buss was no longer stopping in front of
house. They went out and took your gigs and your market right out of your
account. I think they call it competition and to the victor go all the
My question to you and not as a smart ass response is if you and or others
saw what this friend of yours was doing, and understood the formula
above, why in God's name did you not go do the same thing for live music
promotion and sales and at least maintain a greater percentage of the
Musical content: from a friend of mine's band "Asleep at the Wheel"
We were playing a wedding fair for a Large Dept. store here in St. Louis.
The band played for the fashion show and then got to hand out our literature
and talk to brides. We were doing this for two other shows also. A really
good trade off until The DJ's said yes we'll pay you to play for your show.
We couldn't afford the $1200 they wanted to play for their show. We usually
booked 3-5 gigs on the show.
The flyer on the car was not a bad comeback but not any more ethical to do
than the DJ who recognized the value of the Wedding Show as a showcase to
him in front of all your potential customers and lure them away for his own
The other shows followed suit. This cost us heavily in the wedding
business. We did however book well for a while by putting flyers on the
of the people at the show although a DJ came out and wanted to fight us. He
changed his mind when he found out
there were three of us there.
Obviously Larry the DJ's proved you terribly wrong again as they paid it and
took all the business away from you, as a cost of doing business. You guys
just gave up the fight when you should have dug in and fought back. There
other ways to play that game too but I will save that for another time. You
guys should have been the first to go tot he Wedding show promoters and
them a win win situation to control and protect your marketplace.
Don't knock the Band in the box guys. I now make more money using BIAB than
with all other bands combined, My playing income would be about 60% less
without it and each year it gets more sophisticated and sounds better. In
10 years the way technology is going it will be a formidable music aid.
BIAB can't make you sound better. You have to play well - BIAB can't help
you. I work a lot of Duo-trio jobs with it and these jobs simply would not
have been there for me 10 years ago. Yes it cuts out 3 musicians but they
aren't there to play anyway but the jobs are.
Larry I can't knock the band in a box guys any more than you can knock the
DJs that took away your live gigs, they fall into the same category in my
personal opinion, for many reasons, and certainly not because I do not
you and your situation perfectly clearly. But as good friends with
opinions on this list as I have with many of my peers and colleagues I see
more a a we can't beat them so we will join them attitude, lets you have
hassle with sidemen who you say are not available for the gigs with you,
(perhaps because they are out doing other gigs with their Band in the Box so
don't have to hire you) Just as an example. I am also about as equal a
Karaoke singers for much of the same reasons, and I have a few friends who
that, but I would not book them for Free.
. Do I musically like BIAB?
No, but a buck is a buck and I guess that's the true mark of a Whore or pro
musician. There is a benefit from this much playing - I get to make money
and I can keep up my chops easier than before.
You are right, but personally I would rather flip Burgers for a living or
drive a truck or dig a ditch and be appreciated for what I did. Fortunately
made marketing decisions differently than many other musicians did back in
70, s & 80, s when indeed it was tough, but they paid off very well in the
s and is currently getting stronger and better every year, but I do not
restrict myself to working at home. I am a road warrior and go where the
Musical content: Hank Williams
"You got the money Honey? I got the Time" and the Band to make it fun.
Now there's another
difference between a Whore and a pro-musician. They don't have to practice
to keep up.
I assume you are speaking of the musician here in reference to keeping it up
I don't agree with that either since I find the more I practice the better I
can keep it up. :))
Cheers and keep-swinging man. As long as they are still hiring you and
paying you to play live music, you are still a professional in my book.
not look for me to fly out to St. Louis and pay a cover charge to hear you
and the Boys in the Box. :)) I'll catch you when you on a gig with one of
road bands keeping the faith. :))
A case in point. Bob
Kuban - a one hit wonder "The Cheater". Bob runs an agency but mainly books
the Bob Kuban Brass. They are actually a pretty good band. He gets or at
least used to get the ball park gigs. He books at really top dollar but I
guarantee his musicians are getting scale.
They will also pay big bucks to
"out of town" musicians. For what reason I haven't a clue. I play with
several road bands that come through and they book for more than the local
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