[Dixielandjazz] Mostly Self Taught Musicians

[Stan Brager]

Steve;

Your statistics were certainly informative and while it behooves someone who
wants to go into music to immerse themselves in lots of study, how they get
that study done is an individual decision and depends upon the goals and
personality of that individual.

There are those who can get by some rudimentary beginning with someone who
knows how to finger an instrument and take it from there to become first
rate by immersing themselves in the business of making music. And, as you
have stated, by asking others how such and such can be done and by taking a
lesson here and there. Certainly a method which lends itself to those short
on funds.

Others can do it all by going to a succession of more and more advanced
private teachers and schools - the expensive way.

The rest get the training using some combination of the two extremes above.

For most musicians whom I've know, training is an on-going business with
constant practice of those techniques and abilities which are difficult.
This is what reedman Benny Waters said at age 90 - he still practiced but it
was on what was hard for him to play.

So, really we're back to what you mean by the term "a trained musician".
Does it pertain to the capabilities of the musician? or merely to where
he/she learned the craft of making music? or the amount of time which was
spent with formal teachers?

Yet, the one thing which musicians must all have in common is the love, the
will, and the talent to make music.

Stan
Stan Brager
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen Barbone" <barbonestreet at earthlink.net>
To: "Stan Brager" <sbrager at socal.rr.com>
Cc: "DJML" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 7:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Mostly Self Taught Musicians


> I agree, of course. We are looking at the issue from different
perspectives. I
> also note that roughly 25% of the principal chair musicians on all
instruments
> in the ranking US Symphony Orchestras are graduates of Curtis Institute of
> Music in Philadelphia. I would suspect that Julliard grads enjoy similar
> positions. And, I have no argument with anyone who wants to believe that
two of
> years of instruction makes a man a "trained" musician. I just believe that
it
> takes a hell of a lot more than that to be "trained" and that in Benny's
case,
> he did the rest on his own and is therefore "mostly self taught".
>
> His approach to playing the instrument was (according to him) changed in
1949
> through a few lessons with Reginald Kell, so that foundation and classical
> technique he got from Schoep may not have been as strong as we might
think.
> Also, his tone had an edge to it which no classical players used. It was
his
> own and it was a jazz tone. His classical playing was OK, but no where
near up
> to that of Kell or other great classical clarinetists of the times.
>
> On the other hand, he was the King of Swing and earlier a wonderful hot
jazz
> player. He was the TOP GUN of "Jazz" clarinetists (as defined then by the
> audience). He did not learn that from two years of instruction from
Schoep, or
> a few lessons from Kell. He learned that on his own, certainly with some
help
> from his "lessons", but mostly on his own from listening, gigging and self
> practice. In short, paying his dues.
>
> Perhaps we are splitting fine hairs, but I see what he accomplished "self
> taught" as far greater that what he was taught. I also totally agree with
what
> you write in your last paragraph. And Benny certainly had the musical
ability.
> Heck, he was in the union and gigging by age 14 and from that point on he
was
> unstoppable. And from that point on, with few exceptions, he had no formal
> training.
>
> I wish music was that easy for the rest of us.
>
> Cheers,
> Steve Barbone
>
>
>
> Stan Brager wrote:
>
> > Steve;
> >
> > We seem to be splitting some fine hairs indeed. There is no doubt that
> > Benny's first years were spent under the tutelage of some fine teachers
> > especially Franz Schoep. With Schoep, Benny got a strong foundation for
the
> > clarinet. He learned the classical clarinet technique. He played the
> > classical clarinet music and he performed classical duets. The
foundation of
> > his playing stems from this time.
> >
> > Certainly, he picked up jazz on his own - he had to - there were no jazz
> > classes. But, by this time, he had mastered the fundamentals. This also
gave
> > him an edge when he left Ben Pollack's band to become a studio musician.
He
> > was able to survive by his excellent reading abilities, his classical
tone,
> > and his approach to the music.
> >
> > It was these fundamentals which colored his music until the day he died.
> >
> > For these reasons, I believe that he was truly a trained musician.
> >
> > Furthermore, having a music degree or studying music at Berklee,
Juilliard,
> > etc. indicates a trained musician. But when it comes to playing in the
> > philharmonic or being a studio musician, success is predicated on
musical
> > ability and not a piece of paper.
> >
> > Stan
> > Stan Brager
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Stephen Barbone" <barbonestreet at earthlink.net>
> > To: "Stan Brager" <sbrager at socal.rr.com>
> > Cc: "DJML" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 6:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Mostly Self Taught Musicians
> >
> > > Maybe, maybe not. Goodman got his first clarinet at age 10. He was
taking
> > > lessons from Schoep at age 11, and playing professionally at age 14.
While
> > > still in short pants, he was spending most of his time in speakeasies
and
> > dance
> > > halls listening to NORK, and King Oliver. Of course from time to time
he
> > > studied with some of the greats, and yes, even Kell. But then, do we
> > consider 2
> > > years with Schoep from ages 11 to 13 as making him a "trained" player?
> > Even if
> > > you add a few lessons from Kell later on?
> > >
> > > I spent similar time at similar ages learning to draw at The Art
Student's
> > > League in NYC. A very prestigious place with some very renown
teachers.
> > Yet I
> > > would be very wrong to say I am a "trained" artist.
> > >
> > > Most of us in music for a living seek out advice from other players,
> > teachers
> > > from time to time. But that does not make us trained musicians.
> > > As I see them trained musicians are the ones who go to Julliard,
Curtis,
> > > Berkelee, or Indiana University, or any University and study music, or
an
> > > instrument. Or who have spent more than a couple of "teen:" years
taking
> > > lessons.
> > >
> > > I don't see Goodman as being in that category. I think he did most of
his
> > > "learning" on his own.
> > >
> > > I see him like Bird, or Coltrane. Absorbing the music through his ears
and
> > > practicing like a demon for many hours a day via scale and chord
books, or
> > > playing ALL the scales and ALL the chords time and again by ear. That
to
> > me is
> > > self taught, even if he asked Kell for a little help along the way.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Steve Barbone
> > >
> > > PS. One could also argue that Artie Shaw was "mostly self taught".
Read
> > his
> > > autobiography; "The Trouble With Cinderella". (Got his first saxophone
at
> > age
> > > 12, was playing professionally at 15.). And he was the one who figured
out
> > how
> > > to finger and play the altissimo register on clarinet, all by himself.
> > >
> > > Stan Brager wrote:
> > >
> > > > I don't know about the other musicians you named, Steve, but Benny
> > Goodman
> > > > doesn't belong on the list.
> > > >
> > > > He began studying at a local synagogue where he was given his first
> > > > clarinet. When the synagogue stopped giving lessons, Benny's father
sent
> > > > Benny and his older brothers to Hull House for additional lessons.
While
> > > > still a teen, Benny took lessons for 2 years with Franz Schoep who
> > taught at
> > > > the Chicago Conservatory of Music (among Schoep's pupils at the same
> > time
> > > > were Jimmie Noone and Buster Bailey). Other teachers followed from
time
> > to
> > > > time. One of more notable teachers (and a nod to our British
listers)
> > was
> > > > clarinetist Reginald Kell.
> > > >
> > > > Throughout Benny's career, he sought out teachers who could improve
his
> > > > playing.
> > > >
> > > > Stan
> > > > Stan Brager
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Stephen Barbone" <barbonestreet at earthlink.net>
> > > > To: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > > > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 10:35 AM
> > > > Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Mostly Self Taught Musicians
> > > >
> > > > > In an off list conversation with Warren Vache Sr, (One of the
great
> > jazz
> > > > > players who knows more about the music than most of us) he
suggested
> > > > > that my short list of mostly self taught jazz musicians was "too
> > short".
> > > > > He is right and I bow to his wisdom. Said the maestro:
> > > > >
> > > > > "I  think  your "short  list"  is a bit too  short.   How  about
Jack
> > > > > Teagarden,  Red Nichols, Frank Trumbauer,  Benny  Goodman,   Bobby
> > > > > Hackett,  Bud Freeman---and a  few  hundred  others?"
> > > > >
> > > > > By the way, Vache Sr. leads the "Syncopatin Seven" jazz band which
is
> > > > > excellent. How many of us have bought his CDs? Do it now as the
band
> > is
> > > > > great and he is a giant of a player who should be recognized as a
> > > > > "National Treasure."
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Steve Barbone
> > > > >
> > > > > PS. Yes, he is that old and he is the father of Warren Vache Jr,
and
> > > > > Allan Vache.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
>
>