[Dixielandjazz] Cornet Education for Bill Biffle

[TCASHWIGG at aol.com]

In a message dated 11/15/03 10:12:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
jbeebe at centurytel.net writes:

> Hi Mike:>
> >With all due respect:
> >>Maybe Wynton and a lot of other Excellent Black musicians that have been
> >totally ignored by the Dixieland Music Industry for so long have a right to 
> be
> >opinionated, after all Nick La Rocca did not invent Dixieland Music as many
> >people who play it believe.
> 
>  Tom, Tom...where are you coming from?  What is this weirdness about 'Black
> musicians totally ignored by the Dixieland Jazz Industry?'   
> 
> Without sounding like a commercial for the NAACP, just look at the American 
> Rag, Mississippi Rag and any other Dixieland/Traditional Jazz Magazines and 
> the ads for the festivals with all the Bands and Musicians hired to play the 
> circuit.  There is an obvious shortage of (almost nonexistence ) of Black 
> musicians on all of the festivals.
> 
> The Festival organizers claim there are no Black Musicians playing 
> Traditional Jazz available to hire, which is pure Poppycock, I have stated that before 
> on this list and it has also gone mostly ignored.

With all due > respect, Tom, methinks that you don't really know much about 
> the history of
> Dixieland Jazz.    
> 
> I do not claim to be an expert, and compared to many others on the list you 
> are correct, but I do have an open mind and have learned a great deal since I 
> joined this list, some good and some bad. 

  That is OK because not many people do.  Most of the > attendees and many of 
> the players at the Trad Jazz Fests around the country are clueless as to the 
> history of this music.  From the ones I have been to I would again agree 
> with you totally, as well as the organizers.

 As for Nick La Rocca, he and > the others in the ODJB (Original Dixieland 
> Jazz Band) had a hell of a lot to do with the early development of Dixieland 
> Jazz.  They wrote most of the > original tunes and were the first to record 
> them.  
> 
> I agree with you again, yes Nick La Rocca was a major contributor to 
> DIXIELAND MUSIC as most of us have come to know it. 

Some of the early black > musicians would not record because that had this 
> notion of others 'stealin their stuff. ( this is not a joke but was a common 
> fear with many musicians.)
> 
Again herewith I agree some of them indeed did, however not all with undo 
cause, it happened every day, and still does today by the best of them, Black or 
White, Italian, does not matter.
> 
> > Authentic History proves that it started down in New Orleans with guys
> Like >Jelly Roll Morton and King Oliver, Buddy Bolden and many others that 
> never
> >saw a line of print.
> 
>   "Never saw a line of print"...   Buddy bolden was very well known.  My
> god...King Oliver was known all over the south and in Chicago.  Jelly Roll
> Morton was as well known as any musician in the country.  He made and blew a
> fortune more than once.  Unfortunately, most musicians despised him as he
> couldn' t stop bragging about himself and conning them out of money. Both
> Morton and Oliver were very successful  for periods and traveled a lot with
> their groups.


Yes, Jim Buddy and King and Jelly were popular and got the print, I think you 
missed my point here where I said MANY OTHERS never got any print or 
recognition, and what I meant is the countless other overlooked excellent black 
players who contributed and played Traditional Jazz back then.  That is not to say 
that there were not overlooked white, Italian, Polish, French or any other race 
players either.
> 
> If it had not been for the great undeniable success of Louis Armstrong
> their just might not be any Dixieland music at all.  Which in My opinion is 
> the
> main reason he is included in the Great Trumpet Players list.  You can't 
> even
> recognize this music and Not recognize Louis Armstrong and his 
> contributions.
> 
> Tom, this simply is not so...that there might not be Dixieland Jazz without 
> Armstrong.
> 
> Well, in retrospect, you are probably correct, and I used Louis as an 
> example because of his immense popularity and Ambassadorship for Jazz for so long, 
> he sort of broke the mold as we say.

I think that many people don't realize that New Orleans was not > just 
> 'Blacks and 'Whites.

Yes, you are correct again many folks don't, however I certainly do, it was 
one of the greater melting pots of America in that era being an International 
Port City.

>  New Orleans was probably the most racially and ethnically mixed city in 
> the world.  Within the 'colored section there were shades of distinctions with 
> blacks, yellow, high-yellows, mulattos, Creoles and others.  Other citizenry 
> included French, Italian, Irish Mexican and on and on.  They all figured in 
> the mix. Jelly Roll Morton is a good example.
> He certainly was not black but of a very mixed parentage.  

 Many of the early > Dixieland Jazz musicians were Italian.  No argument here 
> at all, the Italians loved the music, just as much as they love almost all 
> forms of Black American Music, that is why I play so many shows in Italy, and 
> Book Black American acts there all the time.  How many studies have you read 
> on this?  

Many of the early great 'colored' clarinetists had French or Italian music 
teachers.

Of course they did Jim, they did not play clarinets in Africa that I have 
ever read about, and the education of the majority of  American Negroes in those 
times was limited at best, so they had to be taught everything by Italians, 
French, or English teachers, that they came in contact with for everything 
including music.
> 
> Man...don't get me started on this.

Ah but it makes for stimulating conversations my good friend, you know I 
admire you and your input on these controversial issues that we do not always 
agree upon in the onset, but pretty much agree once we figure out where I am 
coming from.
> 
> >Whether or not we wish to admit it, these Black originators of Jazz music 
> were relegated to mostly back street juke joints and Brothels to play their 
> music and not allowed uptown in the White Dance Halls.
> 
>  Again this is simply not true. You are buying into the popular New Orleans
> jazz mythology. Young musicians, especially those from Europe love this
> stuff with the 'brothels' and tough joints.  But I temper this by saying
> again that this was a very layered society in New Orleans... There really
> weren't any 'White Dance Halls' 

Well, maybe they were not painted White, but they certainly had signs that 
said no coloreds allowed as did many other restaurants, hotels and places of 
social gatherings.

 To state that 'Black's were the originators > of Jazz music is overlooking 
> the many Creole, mulatto, Italian, Portuguese, etc, etc. that were also in the 
> mix.
> 
> Not at all Jim, However, Creoles, mulattos, High Yellow, and any mixture 
> with Black blood were considered BLACK, just a different shade, but Black non 
> the less and treated for the most part the same way well up into the 1960s and 
> the attempt to dissolve segregation in the Southern USA, ( We all know it 
> never existed in the North ) :)
> 
> 
As for Italian's and Portuguese, I believe there are many Italians and 
Portuguese in their respective countries who are direct descendants of mixed blood 
of Africans as well, so a melting pot in New Orleans was indeed that a big 
melting pot with contributions made by many.
> 
> >Wynton Marsalis is not one of my heroes or even favorite players, but I do
> >not deny him his success and his opinions, which speak volumes for those 
> who
> >were denied their rightful place in History.  Many of them paid a dear and 
> hard
> >price for Wynton to achieve what he has done, as well as one of my former >
> trumpet players, John Faddis at Carnegie Hall.
> 
>   Tom...who is it that you think has been denied their rightful place in 
> history?    
> 
> I was again speaking generically here Jim, and did not intend to restrict it 
> to only Black American musicians, many good well respected players from many 
> other ethnic groups were no doubt overlooked as I find every day on this 
> list, including yourself.   


   I would agree that the early Italian musicians have been denied > their 
> place.  You certainly won't hear Wynton Marsalis mention them.
> 
> Of course not, Wynton is trying to get young Black American musicians to go 
> back to their roots and reclaim their contributions to American and world 
> music, and is teaching them about it in his lectures and classes.  I believe he 
> also includes it in his repertoire of musical performances at Lincoln Center.

The Italian musicians dominate the Classical and Opera world with their many 
historical composers and musicians.> 
> 
> It's About time they got some respect they earned it and did not get there
> just because they are Black or because of Affirmative Action.  They are
> Good, and Wynton is doing more for Traditional Jazz than 90% of all the So
> called Jazz Societies in the World.
> 
>  Who told you this...Wynton?  No Wynton did not tell me this, but almost 
> every other Black American musician I know has, and as you know I run a Black 
> Band and have played with them for thirty years, and I have lived many of the 
> experiences of which I cite in my rantings.
> 
>  Anyone who thinks not should ask why did Ken Burns not come seek us out for
> our opinions on who is Hot in Jazz rather than Wynton who is a highly 
> respected professor of Jazz studies in Louisiana, besides being a fine trumpet 
> player.
> 
>   Ken Burns did go to others beyond Wynton and Crouch but he didn't use
> anything they had to say. Why not?  Because Burns is pushing his social
> agenda...that 'Blacks are still downtrodden and need his help to gain their
> rights. Hence in his 'Jazz' series we got loads of pictures of KKK meetings,
> Nazi rallies, lynching's etc.  Many musicians were portrayed as drug addicts
> and drunks.

Well, if you lived below the Mason Dixon Line or spend much time down there 
you would realize that it is more factual than one would wish to believe.  And 
even in today's enlightened world the above organizations and situations still 
do exist down there, and even way-out here in Overly Liberal California.

> 
> Wynton Marsalis is a fine musician.  His 'Carnival' album with the Eastman
> Wind Ensemble was superb.  He is the first jazz musician that I know of who
> could bring off  "The Carnival of Venice" and he did so beautifully.  But I
> must wonder at what he is teaching in his Jazz studies.
> 
> >Many of us loved to Hate Ken Burns and even threw a few verbal stones at 
> him
> >on this list, but fact is he did something and most of us did not.  Thanks
> to>him many of the bands and musicians on this list are currently enjoying a
> >great resurgence in live performing opportunities to play this great
> music.>Perhaps this time we won't blow it.
> >
> >I have personally worked with many good musicians that I hated on a 
> personal
> >level, but I would not deny them their opinions.  After all That is pretty
> >much what Jazz is all about anyway, opinions, musically and otherwise.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Tom Wiggins
> 
>  Tom, I hope that my comments have not been too abrasive.  I don't mean to
> be but I am an abrasive jerk at times. That I suppose is from not being able
> to get out and blow it out the horn anymore.  I respect you as a fine and
> successful musician and  I salute you for having the guts to put your 
> thoughts out here.
> 


Not at all Jim, and you know by now I certainly respect you and your thoughts 
as well, every time I do not get a reply from a Dixieland Jazz Festival 
organizer, about hiring Black musicians I get the same feeling of having some great 
players being denied the opportunities to play to an audience that would 
adore them if they could get to hear them.

I also regret that I never got the opportunity to meet you and see you 
perform with all the great guys you have performed with, in the words of the old 
song "I was just Born too Late" and got into this music at the wrong time I 
suppose.  Just want to do what I can to keep it going in all it's forms.

I keep telling them that 14, million Italians, and similar numbers in 
Holland, Belgium, Germany, Spain and France, Switzerland and the rest of Europe can't 
be all wrong about how goods these players are, it does not faze them in the 
least.

And I suppose all of Europe has been misinformed about the origins of Jazz in 
all it's forms and they all bought into the myth of New Orleans as Arn, 
another list mate has stated in his reply to this post.   

Oh Well, the saga goes on and on and on and on, will the real originator of 
Jazz please stand up?

Who cares, just play it and enjoy it we are all entitled to our opinions 
misinformed or not, and I am certain that there has been a lot of mis information 
printed by many folks on all sides of the fence since it began.  Blame it on 
the critics, and the journalist looking to sell books through some often 
creative writing.  Music is certainly not the only subject they have been known to 
slant their viewpoints on.  We all have our agendas, and that's OK too.

Cheers,

Tom Wiggins




> Incidentally, Louis Armstrong was fond of the Original Dixieland Jazz Band
> and said so many times.
> 
> Jim Beebe
> 
> 
>