[Dixielandjazz] Chordal & Melodic Improvisation

[briantowers]

Pat,
Supposing another band played "Cornet Chop Suey" with the cornet player
reproducing Louis' famous solo.  I take it that you would not deem it to be
jazz, as there is no originality?  If the "re-creating band" is not playing
jazz, then what is it playing?

We are back in that box again, trying to define jazz, which is very
difficult and subjective.  I can tell it immediately I hear it, by my
criteria, regardless of whether or not it is an original performance.  It
is, however, tough to put into words and I am going to run away from that
one!
Cheers.
Brian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Cooke" <patcooke at cox.net>
To: "briantowers" <briantowers at msn.com>; <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Chordal & Melodic Improvisation


> >>In other words, you can have jazz without improvisation.
> I am not saying improvisation is not an important factor, but I am
> maintaining that it is not paramount.<<
>
> Brian:
> If Louis did the original improvisation, I'd say he's allowed to play it
> again.  It may not be on-the-spot improvisation, but it's still
> improvisation.  I still say improvisation is what defines the music as
jazz.
> If not improvisation, what would you say is 'paramount'.
> If you just played the original composer's straight melody all night, I
> wouldn't call it jazz.
> Pat Cooke
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "briantowers" <briantowers at msn.com>
> To: <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 3:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Chordal & Melodic Improvisation
>
>
> > Ron,
> > You are trying to move the goal posts!
> >
> > In my example, by a sheer fluke, Louis was able to reproduce every note
> and
> > nuance exactly, the second time he played the number.  Highly unlikely,
I
> > agree, but this is a hypothetical situation which I am using to prove a
> > point, namely that it is still jazz, even though the solo had been
played
> > before!   In other words, you can have jazz without improvisation.
> > I am not saying improvisation is not an important factor, but I am
> > maintaining that it is not paramount.
> > Cheers,
> > Brian Towers
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ron L'Herault" <lherault at bu.edu>
> > To: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 4:14 PM
> > Subject: RE: [Dixielandjazz] Chordal & Melodic Improvisation
> >
> >
> > > I doubt Louis would have played the exact same solo.  Even variations
in
> > > tonal color are improvisation and so it wouldn't take much for him to
> > > change the solo, even minimally.  Besides, he created the solo.  It
was
> > > jazz when he created it and, if it were recorded and we played that
> > > recording, it would be jazz each and every time we heard it.
> > >
> > > Ron L
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: dixielandjazz-bounces at ml.islandnet.com
> > > [mailto:dixielandjazz-bounces at ml.islandnet.com] On Behalf Of
briantowers
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 3:32 PM
> > > To: dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Chordal & Melodic Improvisation
> > >
> > > I agree with Paul  that melody, harmony, rhythm and other factors rank
> > > ahead
> > > of "improvisation" as elements of jazz.   Here is a simple test:
> > >
> > > Louis Armstrong plays 'Cornet chop Suey" for the first time on
Monday -
> > > jazz
> > > OK?
> > >
> > > He plays the same solo on Tuesday.  Now,  those that say improvisation
> > > is
> > > what defines jazz would have to say that Louis' Tuesday version of
> > > "Cornet
> > > Chop Suey" is not jazz, which I would consider to be nonsense!
> > >
> > > Q.E.D.
> > >
> > > Brian (this should get 'em going) Towers
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Edgerton, Paul A" <paul.edgerton at eds.com>
> > > To: <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 2:58 PM
> > > Subject: RE: [Dixielandjazz] Chordal & Melodic Improvisation
> > >
> > >
> > > > >Improvisation is what defines the music as jazz.
> > > >
> > > > So you say, and that's a common point of view.
> > > >
> > > > The elements of music are melody, harmony and rhythm. An improviser
> > > > typically draws on all of these in shaping his solos, but often one
> > > element
> > > > will predominate. In my opinion, rhythm is king. It's rhythm that
> > > makes a
> > > > thing recognizable as jazz, improvised or not.
> > > >
> > > > Paul Edgerton, who wonders, "Where does the time come from?"
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
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