[Dixielandjazz] Traditional Jazz Drummings was tride vs. comp

[John Petters]

David said
> > Sorry bass and drums, but your role is basically straight rhythm.

to which Rob asked
> Do you find that part of the drummer's role is also to assist with dynamic
> contrast?  It seems that big band drummers act almost as substitute
> conductors in "driving" the band, setting up the different sections, and
> leading the p's and ff's

I'm going to disagree with David. A drummer playing straight rhythm without
any dynamics or colouration makes for a boring rhythm section and a boring
band.
In New Orleans jazz, the master, Baby Dodds is doing anything but playing
straight rhythm.He is varying his sound FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE BAND. He
feeds each soloist with something different. He uses all the kit, snare,
toms, rims, blocks cowbells and cymbals. His accents are where you would
least expect them.

Tony Sbarbaro with the ODJB and Ray Bauduc with Bob Crosby also knew what it
was about, as did George Wettling. Krupa as another example, on the Goodman
Orchestra and small group recordings is doing far more than just keeping
time. Check out his recordings with Condon at Town Hall on  Jazzology and
see how he drives a Dixieland band.
Yes Rob, the drummer's role is to assist with dynamics and to drive the
band.I've recently heard some fine CDs with Hal Smith, who is doing just
that in the old style  and doing it very well. He gets inside the music. Too
many drummers today think that they can play traditional jazz with just the
knowledge and technique of playing drums. The will sit for chorus after
chorus on a big ride cymbal regardless of what is happening elsewhere. It's
not that easy. It takes a thorough knowledge of the instrument and the music
to do it well. It does not require a great technique, just an ability to
swing and play within the idiom. In fact a drummer with a highly developed
technique has to know when to turn it off when playing old style jazz.
Dixieland cries out for press rolls, blocks, rims etc, yet even George
Wettling, a master of the style discarded these aids, preferring to play
ride on either hi hat or cymbals in later years. His playing lost a lot of
its colour when compared to the wonderful trio sessions with Stacy & Freeman
or the Wild Bill Commodore sides.
Gene, however used press rolls right to the end.

John Petters
www.traditional-jazz.com
Amateur Radio Station G3YPZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob McCallum" <rakmccallum at hotmail.com>
To: "David W. Littlefield" <dwlit at cpcug.org>
Cc: "djml" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 5:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] stride vs. comp


> Hello all,
>
.  Keeping the beat rests with the hi hat and ride
> (and of course the string bass).  Is it the same while playing the
dixieland
> style?
>
> All the best,
> Rob McCallum
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David W. Littlefield <dwlit at cpcug.org>
> To: <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 11:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] stride vs. comp
>
>
> > Whatever rhythm instrument one plays, one should do what's appropriate
to
> > the music genre, the basic style of the band, and what the others are
> > playing. This requires knowing what the leader wants and constant
> listening
> > to the sound of the *whole* band. A relevant factor when playing in
public
> > is what has entertainment value to the particular audience; relevant
also
> > when making records.
> >
> > In OKOM, there's a basic hierarchy: Horns are at the top, piano, then
> > banjo/guitar in the middle, bass below them, and drums at the bottom.
> > Rhythm players have to understand that they are there to support the
> horns,
> > to provide a *floor* so the horns play better and the dancers can
> > sure-footedly groove the roof. This is true whether the band play a
2-beat
> > or 4-beat style.
> >
> > Piano is the prime fill maker, and constitutionally has the freedom to
add
> > some touches of syncopation, etc., at other times. But piano must be
> > prepared to play straight rhythm, ie boom-chuck, or comp simply,
> instantly.
> > For example, the second he hears one or more horns playing syncops or
> > riffs, he should boom-chuck, because square 4/4 will propel the syncops
> > into the stratosphere; the other rhythm cats should do the same. The
bass
> > player may not like it, but 2-handed piano is part of the old music, and
> > boom-chucking gives the rhythm a lot more "whack". Piano should try to
> > sense whether the rhytmists want a little space to do fills. The other
> > night guitar and I felt the bass want to fill the 7th-8th bars, so we
let
> > up and gave him the space, last half of tune just stopped at those
> > measures; by then he knew we were giving him the floor, so he doubled
his
> > efforts; we did this for a couple of choruses, and it really lifted the
> > whole performance. From an OKOM listener's perspective, the active
> 2-fisted
> > piano adds to the entertainment value.
> >
> > Banjo/guitar are adjuncts to the percussion. Chunk, chunk, chunk! Listen
> > for when piano gives some space. The extent of their freedom depends on
> > whether the bass and drums are perfoming their proper roles! They try to
> > learn what support each horn soloist prefers. They should consider that
a
> > constant hard 4 rhythm needs to be relieved regularly or it comes to
have
> a
> > pounding effect. So: some off-beats, held notes, some syncops, glisses,
as
> > a change-up. Chunk-a chunk-a chunk-a style generally sucks, except that
in
> > an out chorus it's one very useful changeup for enhancing the intensity
of
> > the climax. I played/subbed on banjo with a couple of no-piano bands
where
> > the leader wanted straight 4/4; that was ok, except that whenever I
> > listened to both bands off the bandstand, I found the unrelieved 4/4 to
be
> > colorless, boring, and give that pounding effect. So when I played with
> > them, I put in a bit of relief. The drummer of one band used off-beats
now
> > and again, and standard fills; I usually played right along with him,
and
> > it was very effective, loads of fun to interact with him, and the
> > hornpersons usually were delighted. But basically straight rhythm is
> > required, and the main satisfaction for a string player must be to make
> the
> > band sound and feel better. Of course, the mindful leader will give
> > stringplayer some solo space. String (especially banjo) fills and solos
> > have decided entertainment value for the general public.
> >
 KISS. A
> > few small changeups are cool, as is an *occasional* break, sometimes
even
> a
> > solo--perhaps a couple per set. Your main creativity must be in
supporting
> > the rest of the band; of course, the drummer has more tools to work
with,
> > and that can have significant impact on the sound and feel of the band.
> > Bass creativity has little basic entertainment value, can screw up the
> band
> > very easily.
> >
> > --Sheik
> >
> >
> > At 08:57 AM 1/22/2003 -0600, Pat Cooke wrote:
> > >      IMHO, stride is for solo piano....when you have a bass player,
> leave
> > >the bass notes for the bass to play.  I find a comping style much
easier
> to
> > >play bass with.
> > >      Also, a piano and a banjo(or guitar) in the same band is not a
good
> > >idea, unless they have played together long enough to know what chords
> the
> > >other will be using and when to make the changes.
> > >      I've played with a number of groups where the piano and banjo are
> > >playing different chords at the same time.....Maddening!
> > >    Pat Cooke
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Charlie Hull" <Charlie at easysounds.com>
> > >To: "Charlie Hooks" <charliehooks at earthlink.net>; "DJML"
> > ><dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > >Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 8:51 AM
> > >Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Solos vs. Banjo Styles
> > >
> > >
> > >> IMHO banjo can be compared to piano in a band.  Some pianists can't
let
> go
> > >> of striding or playing every beat even tho they can be set free by
> letting
> > >> the bass and drums carry the rhythm.  Ditto with banjoists -- many
> insist
> > >on
> > >> playing a chord for every beat, while others -- epitomized by Bill
> > >Dendle --
> > >> 'comp' like a good pianist, doing off-beat sparks and tasty fillins.
> > >> Depends on the band's makeup, too.  If you have both piano and banjo,
> you
> > >> don't want them both comping and filling at the same time.
> > >>
> > >> I agree whole-heartedly with Charlie Hooks.  A plink-plink-plink,
> > >> chord-on-every-beat banjo or piano can really box in a soloist's
> ability
> > >to
> > >> flow and use passing chords.  To me, it inhibits the imagination and
> > >> creative juices.
> > >>
> > >> But we are each unique, thank the Diety.  Viva la difference!
> > >>
> > >> Charlie Hull
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
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> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
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